Integrity in Sport Series - Episode 1

This episode is brought to you in partnership with

Judie Saunders -  https://askllp.com/attorneys/judie-a-saunders

Katherine Starr - www.katherinestarr.com

Team Athlete Integrity - www.athleteintegrity.com

Transcript

0:41

Welcome everyone. It's such. An absolute pleasure to be sitting down, having this conversation with Katherine Starrr and we are working together to do an amazing thing. We have teamed up to do a series and to start off on this series, we're going to discuss just a plethora of really. Deep issues that affect athletes affect parents affect the whole coaching dynamic. I want to start off with, just framing who Katherine is. many of the listeners will know. Katherine is a two time Olympian from 1984, 1988. She represented great Britain in 1986. She won two silver medals at the Commonwealth games Katherine experience success, great success at the collegiate level and swimming. She swam for the university of Texas and participated in three NCAA championship teams and was named a 14 time all American athlete some other great achievements. Under the Katherine Starr name she founded Safe4Athletes in 2011. The Safe4Athletes organization is the result of living for decades, with pain and suffering from the tragic, what happened to Katherine in her coach athlete relationship and the sexual abuse. So Safe4Athletes was born and brought to life to help others, other athletes who have experienced the same destructive abuse and the power that the coach we have in the coach athlete relationship. The mission of Safe4Athletes is to advocate for athletes that have been abused, who have been bullied. Who have been silenced and harassed by a more powerful coach and teammate. And we're going to talk about safe 4 athletes. We're going to dig into over the course of this series about all of the things that say for athletes does. And we'll also going to learn about the different dynamics of the coaching parent relationship. So Katherine, I'll turn it over to you as we continue our discussion. Thank you, Judy. And thank you for jumping on this podcast and doing this series and talking about this really important topic. It just has so much meaning to me on such a deeper level. And I want to be able to. Share my experience in a way, both what I have worked with athletes, as well as, what I've seen over the years. Being involved with various aspects, whether it's been on a legal case or whether it's been working directly through and with say for athletes, and I really want athletes to have the voice that they deserve to have. So I want to change the dynamic in sport, and I want to bring a new. Awareness and a way to, to participate in sport as well as help athletes heal from their past and understand the dynamic as to which they experienced. And hopefully they take something away from our conversation. So I'm really excited for us to talk today. Awesome. Awesome. So let's kick off our conversation by talking about. And so the listener knows that a lot of the conversation will and track the forthcoming book that you have coming out. I have gone through the majority of the book, the manuscript and. Been riveted by what I've learned, it's added a whole new meeting, a whole new texture and understanding to what I know about abuse, sexual abuse. What I know about being silenced it has. I know for sure it's going to give me even a greater understanding of how I deal with my clients, how I deal with the high level and elite athletes that come to me for help. So I thank you for that. And I want to take it all the way back to a portion of the book where even I with, I call myself a weekend warrior in the gym. But even I CA it resonated with me. When you talk about you were very little and you were in a swimming pool. I think it may have been the quote unquote baby pool, so to speak. And you had on your swimsuit and you were feeling the little knots that sometimes come on, get on a swimsuit. Cause you're rubbing up against the bottom and that resonated with me. Cause I remember being a kid and. Having a swimsuit and you get it, and you're so excited. And then as you're in the pool, you gets pulled by the concrete or whatever the pool is made of. And I remember being so sad and disappointed, but can you tell that's my little first swimming us story, but can you tell the listeners about your first introduction and what's swimming meant to you in those very early years, very early moments. So I yeah I remember so distinctly this story. So there was a there was like the 25 yard pool and with the diving boards and all the kids were playing in this pool and I'm in this, I'm in the kid pool. That's six inches deep and there's a broken mermaid statue there and this big Oak tree. And I'm like the shadow. Of the tree and I'm cold. And I see this other world, like the other, I have two older brothers and they're over there with such joy and Adelaide action coming out of them in the pool. And I'm over here by myself because I can't swim. And and I'm in my mother's off talking to, I have another little little sister who's one, so I'm three or four. And, so I'm in that Weird family spot. Like I just can't do anything. Like I'm not the youngest getting all that attention. I'm not free. Like my brothers we're in the pool. And when you hear those sounds of Marco Polo's kicks me back and some early days aging myself, I guess my Olympic year that I was in aged mirror. Ready. And and I just, and I sat there and I studied and I watched. And I'm like, and it was like this buildup inside of me of I can do that. And I had convinced myself that I knew how to swim. And I would get in. And one of the things that I would do when my dad came at the end of the day from work, he would come to the pool and we'd get in the pool and I'd swim on his back and he'd, we'd swim up and down on the pool as I was holding onto his neck. And it was just like that joy. And I'm like, I've always wanted to just be off of there and doing my own thing. And so I built up this. Like over the summer, I built up the courage and I'm very visual and I watch and I study, it's just, I don't know if it started then or, it is, it's who I am as a person. That's how I just intuitively know how to do things. And I have such confidence in my abilities to do that. And I think it certainly started from this moment where I was like, You can call it snapped. You can call it whatever you want to call it. I'm like, I'm swimming, I'm getting in and I'm swimming. And I walk across that pool, and it's a little slippery when you get wet. So you gotta be look careful. Like I knew all the challenges ahead of me and I had processed how to do it. And I was standing on the edge of the pool and it was just like, everybody was just off. The lifeguard was doing its thing and kids where everybody else was doing their thing. It was just busy and active. And no one saw me, like no one was really paying attention to me. And and it was like my entryway into this world that I so desperately wanted to be in for many reasons. And and so I just jumped in the pool. And it was like that freedom I was alone. I was like, and I'm just embodied in this water around me with, and the other thing that happens, and I think you gotta be a water person to really understand this is that there was silence. Wow. And that, or I'm an introvert who's to say it's social introvert knew it then at three. And but in the peace, like just pure peace, pure that pure moment of like solitude and being one with myself that I had found in the water. And it was like just being held and just cradled in this, in where I just felt I was at home. And so what did I want to do? I just wanted to be there with everybody else. That was it. And but it didn't take long. That was like such a split second. One of the kids was like, saw me underneath the water and they didn't know what my confidence was. And so they, pulled me up and put me on the side. And I was so disappointed. Like I had found my habit. And then here I am now, like on the side, wanting to now justify and explain with the abilities of, I was three and a half when this happened. And I was like convinced. I'm like, I'm convinced I know how to swim. Like I had so internalized my abilities to like, be in this water and do what I needed to do. I believe so strongly in myself. Wow. And and to have that intensity, it was stronger than me. It was so like this being. And when I talk about so one of the things that I talk about is the athlete within, and that was it like this persona, this being. I had just met, like I knew we were studying together in that baby pool, but I had just met and I, and the lifeguard was like, you can't be in this pool and lift you some 25 yards, which is the length of the pool. And, it was one of those things where it's I know how to swim. Like how do you like I'm three and a half year and adults you're much bigger than me. And I am convincing you with the level of language skills that I have to be able to tell you that I know how to swim. I screamed my head off. I like literally screamed my head off and they had to get my dad off the golf course to calm me down. Like he was the only person that was going to be able to calm me down, but he believed in me. Like he believed in me. And so it was like for my, and my, and so when he, my mother was like, when can we have swim lessons? She knew that I was bursting at the seams, but I was beyond that. I'm like, I don't need swim. Lessons need to be swimming. I just knew, it was just when you sit in a, in, in there's like a. I'm just intuitive. I've always been this way, but it's just like, when you know the answer to something and you haven't been given, like you haven't studied something, you just know, you just intuitively know whether it's an answer to a math problem or it's an answer to like something it's to me, that's like you're in an innate talent that you're so connected to. And, and so my father, he saw that like you saw that and it was like his quick decision to be able to actually see me. So now I'm in this my father really sees me which then brought this even deeper love for my parents who like saw this passion that I had and then the reward. And this is where the reward systems started. With, okay. Can she swim a lap? The lifeguard was like, that's fine. If she can do it, she can, it was with all this doubt and questioning, there was no like assumption that I was actually gonna be able to do it. My dad. And my dad like kneels down, looks me in the eye and he's I'll give you a plate of French fries, right? So now we have this food reward program, that's now just been introduced into my life and, and so I was like, but it wasn't that I didn't, it wasn't the French fries that I swear. I swam to make him proud. I swam because I wanted this love from my father, but I wanted to prove to him that I could do it. That's what I needed out of this whole thing. So when I jumped in the water and the parent, my parents are talking to this lifeguard and I did a couple of strokes and I pull off to the side and they're like, look, she can't swim. Before he could finish that sentence, I'd pushed off. I was like, Oh, no. There was like, no failure that wasn't going to happen on my watch. Was just like this, these traits, and these characteristics were so strong. Like they were like, you don't learn that in school. It's just like in you. That's exactly what I was going to say. It's not something you learn in school. It's it sounds like you're speaking of something that's innate intuitive, and it sounds like the beauty of that. It was on a, and I'm not going to discredit this. It was on a, another world it's on a spiritual level. And your father seeing that. Spoke directly to it. And that made almost the, we all, we always, you have a love or admiration for a parent that's built in, but it sounded like it made that even bloom even more, he saw something that you couldn't even voice as a three-year-old. I know I can swim in this and I'm going to get over in that pool. I'm going to jump in fearless. Regardless of whatever, quote, unquote danger you didn't know, or you couldn't articulate at the time and your father saw that, do you think that your father seeing that cause your love and admiration for him? They even took to go boundless to grow even more? I what it did was it created this special relationship with my dad. And so when there's four kids, you're vying for attention. Whether, you know it or not, it's yeah. There's only, one spot when you want to sit on his lap. You know what I mean? There's the spot who gets to sit next to dad at dinner, like even though we had our designated spots, but it, but what it did was it, we had a bond, like we had now something in common. And so in that I get to follow and my father, which I share about this, my father was on the British national team. He was a very accomplished person and he didn't get to go to the Olympics because and I said that sort of in his language, cause I know it was like the biggest disappointment of his life. Not to be an Olympian. He was in medical school. So he was like, he was in the Navy, he was in the medical school and what, and then in 48, when he was like at a peak in his life. And then in 52, we were in the cold war. So there was like a lot of political stuff that prevented him that created this anger for his own career. But I don't know that all I know is. Now I see how my dad's responding to me and it's changed my dynamic with him, which makes me love whatever this is inside of me, which I call the athlete within. Makes me love this version of myself. That's changing everything around me in many different ways. So let's talk about that for a moment because, and I know over the course of this series of our different discussions and conversations, we're going to have, we're going to touch on so many really relatable issues. We're going to talk about the parent coach dynamic. We're going to talk about the athlete coach dynamic and also how athletes are parented. And I'm going to, I am so excited for parents to get and to understand some of the things and issues that you're going to talk about. But right now, for purposes of this conversation, I'd love for us now to focus a little bit on that phrase that you use in your book the athlete within, and that concept. And tell me if I'm even close to an understanding the, of the athlete thin. So what you're talking about now at that three year three and a half year old, you're jumping in and you're sitting on the side of the pool. You said you felt the silence you sell. You said you felt a pure, perfect piece. Is that the athlete within that, you know that to there that's born, that you're given. That then the, that is then nurtured or could be encounter some other obstacles or abuse, but in its purest sense, what is the athlete within? So for me, the there's it's really my intuitive, it's like intuitive self. So one of the things as an athlete is. I don't, it doesn't go through my brain. It's like in my body. And so like right now I train with this trainer Peter Park who trains these professional athletes and it gives me these sets. And and I'm having a new healing experience with my whole athletic world. And so what happens is that he'll say okay, and this was in swimming. Okay. Do you know. Four five hundreds on this time. And then this is your goal time, or whatever. That would be a very boring set. And I'd hate to give some of that, but, just for the sake of this conversation, so I'll get a set and I do, I'm actually a skier person, so I do a lot of cost countries. So that's my, my machine of choice these days. And and so he'll give it the set and it doesn't, I don't compute through my brain. I actually there's it's it's a computing of, through my physical being. That then, and I produce on the money. And so when we joke around that's he calls me robot. So if I can maintain like at a very high level consistency, like on the money consistency. And when I swam at a very high level, I was so like, my pacing was on the money. You could set your Rolex watch to it. Like it was like on the money. Exactly. Whether it was slow in the same, whether it was fast in the same, it was. I was always very consistent. And so for me, like this version of my athlete, like we're connected through being, and we are but it's, it like moves me and it's like a greater force than I am, and it's not, and there's the spiritual context to it in the sense that you brought, like when you brought that up earlier and like we're, I'm connected to. Cause you have to relax into it. It's not there's this determination and there's this force, but and people like when I swam, I'd be, and people talk about the flow state. So it's really being in we talk about that all the time, like being in the flow state and there's something peaceful about being in the flow state. Like you are, you're so disconnected from the rest of the world and it's just you and your connection to this. Th the athlete within you, that's it. And so there is a purity, there is a, there is, nothing that gets in your way other than you're just being you like you're in your full, authentic, you like you're in integrity with yourself of who you are. And then when I start thinking I'll get to a point in some of these sets where I'll be like, Oh, this hurts. Or, and I'll get thoughts that come up like, Oh, like I'm starting to die. Or like I'll tell myself something and we'll get more into around thoughts. I would tell myself things that would redirect my path. And I knew that's like in my brain and then my brain would start to change the computing within my being. But when I was in the pure flow of it all, that was like, when I was enjoy, that was when I felt alive. That's when I felt like that I'm a swimmer, like all my identity and all my version of me is when I'm in this complete flow and not every time. The flow doesn't. If it falls out of the flow, you're into a different part of your body, you're in your heart or you're in your head, but it's not, and so like staying in it is what I want. Like, all I wanted to do was go back to that place. Okay. Like in B the swimmer. Okay. But then at some point, very early on and we talk about this in my book. At some point I changed my swimmer title to wanting to be an Olympian. And that happens like when I was eight years old and I knew I was going to be an Olympian. So then that changed my, my, it was still this athlete, but now I'd given it. I've given it a rightful path, but I changed it into sort of this external world of accomplishment. So let's talk about that because that's really interesting. So here you are, you're experiencing, so let's connect this. You experienced this innate intuitive three or an old first experience. You see this other world over there, this big, beautiful pool. You jump in, you get you one of your early memories of the piece of a pure state. You're also talking, you were telling us about what it feels to be that essential athlete within. And then now we have that, it sounds like there are maybe some external factors that's coming in. So will you speak then to some of the athletes that and just lay individuals when. Does it switch then? And what causes that switch from this pure? I know this is my being, this is the state. This is a beautiful thing to me, to a more external markers I need, or I want to become an Olympian or whatever it may be. What do you think causes that? Is it the. Is it the interjection of individuals seeing this beautiful talent and saying, okay, now we've got to turn this talent into, fill in the blank and Olympian a swimmer. Is it the external, is it the coach? Is it a coach seeing you? Is it a parent realizing that quote, unquote, this kid is special or talented? What causes that switch and that change? To the external markers. First I think that you for me there's this pure, like no one taught me, like this was all in me. Like just, not having a swim lesson. I didn't get any external, anything to be a swimmer other than me visually. Observing and still it's still like this internal connection to self. Okay. So I started right away so at three and a half here, Oh, this kid knows how to swim. And so then what happen? I got a coach. I joined a swim team. I like, there's now a person that's developing my whole, like this thing that I love. And this thing that I love being the swimmer, being this talent. Is what I've like love. And I love how my, the response I get from my dad. I love the the, how proud to experience somebody, how proud they are view. I love how I get more attention than my brothers. I love how I've now become daddy's little girl. Like all these dynamics change and they make me feel special. They make me feel different and I'm winning everything. I breaking every state record. Like all those things are feeding. This acts. Those are all external things that are feeding this internal gift. Got it. And so that's the part that it's but, and we'll get more into the, into really the coach dynamic of how this changes and effects, but you have a person who's who you're going to see every day. Who's developing you and developing, like all we want to do. I think go through life is feel good and we seek ways to feel good. I don't think that changes. So if it's like to eat a cookie, like when how many kids seek candy, right? What are they looking for? To feel good or have this moment of joy. And so when I'm engaged with a coach and so what I get out of that is I get a moment of joy when I went. Cause I get it from other places. So it starts this, all this external validation that starts to come in versus just my own drive my own, drive into the world of an, and then there's a, then there's this part, which, and I really will get in more to this later that I become complacent with it all because I'm getting what I need externally. That I, and as I become complacent, I don't listen to what's going on inside. I don't need to, because you're giving me this information, and that's what I'm supposed to do in the world. So if I get like all A's and you validate me with getting all A's, then I don't have to feel good about myself really, because you feel good. And. This is a trailer of what's to come. When we talk about the parent dynamic in a high-level athletes life. But talk to us a little bit about, as you're talking about this, the external praise, the individuals outside of you or things outside of you, what was it in particular? About the relationship with your father early on. How did that serve as, what were you looking for? Or what did you get? Did you get the immediate you talked about that. He looked at you and early in that day when you were first swimming and it seemed as if he knew. What you were feeling intuitively, did that also progressed? Did he also was invested? Can you tell us about what you, that connection and your relationship with your father first, early on? So it really solidified in so in, in 1976, I was eight years old and. So my parents, let me just give you a little back, a little thing with my parents. So my parents are both British and is my oldest brother and they immigrated to the States and my father was a doctor and he was headed the dermatology department at the university of Wisconsin and then in a renowned doctor. So he was extremely successful. So success was something that was important in our family. And so for me to like at a very young age, be able to like, deliver that up on a silver platter was just like, I didn't have to wait until I'm 30 right. To define what success is. I didn't have to wait until I graduated from law school or medical school, or, it started a startup company and I have to wait for any of that here. I am like at this very young age. Being defined what success is and having every state record in a lot of my records, when I started say for athletes in 2011, they were still on the books. I still had 30 years later, my state records and my friends, their kids they'd be there and they text me and they'd be like, Hey, just so you know, your state records still lasted another year, and this was like in the early part, like this less than 10 years ago, this is five, six, seven years ago that it was still in the book. So when you're, so I have this like success that I know eight year old is prepared for and what that dynamic changed. So then when I, and so then when I changed and the family was. So in, in 76 we had an Olympian the same as Jim Montgomery. And then he lived like five houses away, like up the street and in this neighborhood and those five Olympians on this one street that I lived on. Yeah. So it was interesting to read about. Yeah. Yeah. And so then I got to watch on the Olympics were in Montreal and there was live back in those days. So when my dad would come home and we got to watch this together, And and that was this part of we both had the same love for something, and so like this connection to my dad, my brothers didn't have that. They had that they would develop different loves, but I had that and it made just my, and his relationship. Now we had our thing, like we had a way to communicate and my dad was not a. Communicative talker. He read a book a day. He was always, it was always reading. And so to get his attention also was like a commodity in all of it. And so here I am, I'm getting attention for my success. I'm getting attention because we both loved the same thing and I saw it in his eye. Like that twinkle, like when they talk about the twinkle in their eye, like I saw that and I connected to that. And so why, and so that was like, those are all the things that are like driving me to it's this drive for love. It's this drive in? It's in, what do we love? Do I love him or do I love swimming? I don't know that. I know that all I know is that. It feels good when your dad's proud of you. It does not feel good when he's not. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you mentioned, and I don't want us to give away too much of this part of the parent dynamic because that's coming. So people are going to have to come back to here and get all of those nuggets of truth. And the deep dive you mentioned that. You started, even when you started say for athletes that many of your records, state records still standing. So let's then focus the remaining time on safer athletes. Why start that? Why was it needed? What was it, what in say for athlete speaks directly to athlete integrity. What about that speaks to. How this parent dynamic could cause, or not cause, but could have a, and I want to pick these words carefully, could play a part in the, some of the abuse that you encountered or whether it did. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah, no. And I'm actually going to go back to the athlete side of this. So I'm not going to go into the parents side of it, of why I started say for athletes and we can talk more about the parents stuff when we get into our next episode. We'll talk more about that. So I actually, I was in a very broken place of my life. Not like I just had, I'd lost all interest of. Like just being in life. Like I was so broken hearted, so disappointed. Like I had put my heart, I'd put my heart into this and to walk away with such just Plaza. I didn't want to live anymore. Let's just be like, let's just get truth. And then when my dad died, there was so many connections that you haven't read about yet. So I'm not even going to give you away that part of the story. That I was in a place where I'm like I gotta do something. I just, I gotta work and do something. So I started coaching. And so it was just like simple. Like it was the only place where I actually knew, like I felt I had any skills. Like I was, my self-esteem had just been lost and obliterated to nothing and I'm very smart person. So it's. To the fact that you can't believe that you can do anything is that's how much I was. That's how much I was taking, like how much I allowed the world to take from me if you will. And so I started coaching and there was this young boy and he came to me. He was 12 years old and he'd been bullied for doing ballet. And he was actually this very talented. It was very talented at ballet and he was a family of three. And so he, and so when he came to me, we did these when he first went, but I'm just going to give you a time to just give you a point of reference. How he improved. So we would do hundreds and he couldn't make them on a minute 40 rep. Like it just was, he just like when he first started, he, cause he hadn't swam. He been doing ballet, like he was talented, but he developed. And so in six weeks I taken him and trained him where he could now hold hundreds on one 10, right in this 12 year old boy he's now actually can call himself a swimmer. And so then what I saw was, is how this kid started to change his relationship to me. And he started giving me the credit for his self-esteem has bullying had stopped in school. He started to love himself again, he saw this talent that he like that he didn't even know he had, I'm nurturing it for him. And. And then is the way that he responded to me was he would do anything for me. And I was like, huh. And his dad dropped them off. He was always alone with me cause he had, they had two parents and three kids. And so one kid gets, missed in the bunch. And I'm like, wait a minute. This kid would do anything that I'd asked him because I just transformed his life in such a meaningful way. And I was like, Oh, this is how it happens. This is how it like sits. This is how it happens. It goes into the system because internally I now had just changed this athlete within him. And it was like, this love that he had hated this version of himself. Now he'd found a place that he had loved. He's performing, it's getting accolades. And I was like, Oh, I got to do something like, cause I just saw how clearly it like floated up in the system. And if you take someone who's not honest and not in integrity and you see a way to abuse this power that you like, because then as the coach, they have the ability to because you're holding in the child's eye, you're holding all the cards. The gives them all these things about themselves that make them feel proud that give them joy, that give them happiness, give them all these things are somebody else to give you. And that's the way that the coach creates this dynamic. And so we'll talk more about this in a deeper way, but after witnessing that, I'm like, I need to be a voice of change. And I also like, could see the voice of this boy, he wasn't going to tell me anything. Like he was there to get what he, the dynamic change that he was experiencing in school. Who, why wouldn't you want to stop bullying. And feel proud about yourself, and so that's when I was like, I. So I reached out to my athletic director at Texas Donna Lopiano and I wrote to her, and I don't know if you're at that part of the story and and I said, Hey, this is why I was troubled in college. Will you help me? And then that's where, say for athletes. Came from right. And so she's brilliant when it comes to policy. So we created, and so we sat down and we created this structure of what did I need, what would be helpful? And so we created a program for other sports programs to become a safe wrath fleets club. Okay. And the dynamic and the structure of it. We require an athlete welfare advocate to be one or two, depending on the size of the club where every athlete knows who that person is in the club. And they can go talk to them. And it's somebody outside of your parent. It's not somebody on the board say sport requires you to be on the board. I disagree with that because you need somebody who's like completely unbiased and and you get involved in these dynamics and you don't even know you're in them. I mean it's, and so I needed a place for with our structured policy and with the, with safe and trusted people that they'd be able to, then anybody can go freely, go and do their sport, do what they love and not be in this. Parents are constantly like looking and observing about how to change. That's not how this changes. And it's like the parents need to get an integrity. The coaches need to be an integrity and athletes need to be integrity. Everybody needs to be an integrity. All right. Let me stop you for a second because there's a couple of words. So we, you mentioned safe sport and I want to back up and make sure that all listeners you, and I know what that is. So we'll loop back to that, but I think we'll, let's really briefly. So the whole concept of safe sport, and by that you mean by the us center for safe sport, correct? The organization that oversees the different sports and the different Olympic movements is that's what you're referring to. Correct. Yeah. So the center were all allegations of sexual abuse. We'll go through the center. And allegations of emotional verbal abuse go directly to the sports. And the way that's Safe4Athletes works is out. We'll still going to report in to the center for safe sport. We will still walk them through. And the other part of Safe4Athletes is none of these athletes. Plates are left alone within the structure of their club. They can always come direct to say for athletes with an issue. So there's always a loophole out of the power system, and that is what made it important for me. And and then we'll help you. We'll get you connected over to the center and we can handle issues locally also, because I just want to bring that up that say for athletes, it's direct, like when you send it off to the center, you've lost all. It's just lost all control and you've lost all they're like jurisdiction over the issue. And and you can probably speak to the legal side of that is, but when you find locally, if nobody knows who to go and talk to. Like in get an issue resolved, like the little issues I want to take care of the little issues that don't become the big issues. And and that's generally what happens is nobody knows what's going on. And then eventually when it's too late, it gets into the center. There's. A long waitlist even get addressed. And we've had like gymnastics cases and other cases where there's been allegations of sexual abuse that have been reported to the center. And they've continued to happen at the local club. Now, say for athletes was in place. You would be able to remove that coach. And until further investigation, we require a whole mediation panel. There's an appeal. It follows the same structure, legal structure that we're entitled to in this country. And there's a process, a clear process that we walk people through to get you to a result. So that's like the mechanics of the organization, if you will, the mechanics of safer for athletes. So we want every gym, every club to become a safer athletes club. So parents know that there's a pathway. The allegations will be addressed at the littlest of levels, whether it's emotional abuse, verbal abuse, bullying. We do a lot of athlete on athlete issues, and it's a safe and positive environment for everybody where you can focus on being your athlete. Good. Next van, Katherine, this connects beautifully. Say for athletes, you talked about, you said a couple of really good buzzwords. You said that the whole power structure, the power that you, when you first, when this was conceived in with your with who you were coaching the child he came to you saw that you understood it. You also said another, really interesting concept, integrity, the athletes being integrity, the the the coaches being integrity. What do you mean by that? Because then I want to connect it all back to the purpose of Safe4Athletes. So what do you mean by the the different, the power structure? Can that be out of balance? Can that be out of integrity and then the actual individuals within these, within the system it's about us lying to each other. And so I would say then from athlete integrity, coach integrity, parent integrity. You've got three people that are lying to each other. And so you have an athlete who is not, when you want to protect and develop this athlete within you, you see it as only externally, it can be developed and we want to change that line and that balance that way. And then you have a parent who's dry for you. Which we'll get into more on that dynamic. W we'll talk next week on that. And when you have that parent dynamic in play, what, how are they out of integrity? There's different ways to be out of integrity. And I think when you're out of integrity, you're blind, and I can get into a deeper issue of how does sexual abuse happen in the system? And for me, like when I went to ask myself and do my research and dig, and I came up with like, how is it so prevalent just in life and in general, like how does it happen? So easily. And and I just think we're like, we can't, we're in an illusion, we can't see it work because we're blinded by lies. We're literally blinded by our own lives. And and that's how this happens in the system. So whether it's the coach out of integrity with maybe trying to. If they have no resolve from their previous, from their athletic career. And then they're putting that into the abuse. You could talk about, I'd have to dig in and know information by some of these abusive coaches and look into their past did they not accomplish to the level that they wanted? And it justifies the tactic as to which they've used. To in order to coach, we're going to talk on that. That's going to be good. We're going to talk about that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We got a lot of topics. We're going to really dive into that. I keep bringing up on this but we have this we gotta clean it up. Like the whole point of this is we gotta clean it up. So let me give you tools like so we have the structural part of say for athletes and becoming a safer athletes club. And then we're developing and I'm developing tools and in a structure to change those dynamics. So you can be in integrity with yourself, whether it be a parent, whether it be an athlete, whether it be a coach like. We'll bring, we're bringing tools and programs and structure to be able to do that. Cause I don't think you wake up one day and just go, Oh, I'm going to be an integrity and we need to guide you there. We need a structure in a way to, to get you to that place. You understand it. And it's not just for. Lee. It's not just for, in sport. What I want to do is I want to teach people like athletes are the strongest people. They end up being the weakest people in life. Afterwards. If they've been harmed in their sport, they end up being non contributors in a meaningful way. That's the piece that I want to change. And that's also why I do this. So tell me when you talk about just a moment ago with the mechanics. The mechanics at the local level, the mechanics that it sounds like, and I'm going to speak in my own opinion here, the mechanics that's missing from safe sport, from missing from the gov national governing bodies, depending on the sport, that local level. So for example I know a governing body who has state cheers state chapters, and. You can make a complaint and you can be a parent sitting there or an athlete sitting there and hoping that local state cheer will come in intervene on your behalf or your child's behalf. That's not happening. How was that going to be different? How does that work on the local level for safer athletes? First of all, there's no hope there's actually action. So when, say for athletes in place, so you have your athlete welfare advocate. So they're going to report to that, or are they reported direct to say for athletes. And then we'll walk them through doing an investigation to have an outcome, and then we'll help if either we make suggestions as to what the repercussions in that situation would be based on the information that comes back to them. So we would walk them through the whole process. So they're never alone in it. And at the same time, we report to the various individuals so they can wait on whatever that wait time is. We're not beholden to. And so because it's local and because there's policy in place, they can take the necessary actions to create the safe environment that they need to have. We're not worried about somebody else hoping to go. And if they have time to make a determination about about this, right? And so one of the things that Two years, or this case is more important than mine or whatever, there's you don't worry about any of that. Say for athletes just we'll help you walk it through. You become a safer athletes club. You can, you'll be able to sign up on our. Come join us. We can do a 15 minute consultation with you. We'll explain the clubs, how to come say for athletes club, we have them go through the whole process. So everybody within the club, the coaches read the coach's code of conduct, the athlete welfare, every kid is trained in and communicate, and we communicate that out to the whole club. Who's your point of contact and. Coaches have done reference checks. Like all the stuff like that you need to have in place are in place. And there is no wondering if somebody at this club is going to take action. When I file a complaint. Okay. So to be clear because I'm thinking, so let's just put it at, let's throw out a hypothetical. So your you're an athlete. Your coach is being, has con has turned from chess, making a simple correction on whatever the skill is. Now it's starting to feel humiliating and you're starting to feel degraded. You're starting to feel embarrassed. Maybe isolated, maybe you're not even being coached anymore. The coaches stomping up throwing something. I'm not going to coach you. You are, the child feels comfortable and is able to disclose that to the parent. Now can a parent now pick up the phone, get on the phone with safer athletes. And now we'll say for athletes advocate directly for that family, or is safer athletes only dealing with the gym side, the facility side. No. So what would happen? So they can either go to their designated athlete welfare advocate and that athlete welfare advocate would then context, say for athletes and I'd walk the athlete, welfare advocates through the policies at the gym about how to take action, and and make a determination. And and if it's so if a coach is acting in that way and coaching in that way, then. The determination will be based on the allegation. Other, they need to be educated. They need to have some sort of training, but let me also, for the listener, help people understand something about emotional abuse. So if it's inconsistent across the board and some people say this coach is great, and some people say this coach is like harmful, then. Let me just explain that's emotional abuse in itself when it's inconsistent. And so when these allegations come in we will work through and understand that. And be able to understand those dynamics and be able to then make changes accordingly. And so those allegations may not be at a threshold at, for the chair to make a determination. They may not be at a threshold for the NGB to make, to do anything because there's not enough information and certainly not for the center for safe sport, but it doesn't change what safer athletes can do. Cause you're a safer athletes club. And we have a clear set of policies, or we have a whole handbook, which is 57 pages long of our policies. And and we don't expect you to know them all, but we do, you'll be trained and you'll know what appropriate behavior is and isn't, and I clearly say if it feels wrong, it is wrong. So stop it at the very, at the Genesis of the issue. That's what say for athletes is trying to do. Got it. Got it. We I think that we, I mean our conversation, we could probably go on forever. But I know that we're going to break down, in a couple of different conversations coming up different episodes. But before we talk about what's the next conversation and how to connect with you, tell me, is there anything else that you wanted to get out during this first, our inaugural conversation here for parents? Our listeners are going to be a very, that they're going to be parents. They're going to be coaches. They're going to be the athletes themselves. Is there anything else that you want those listeners to know during this conversations before we talk about what's coming and how to connect with you and say for athletes? One, I will encourage every listener that they to go to the Safe4Athletes. So it's safe the member for athletes that, or excite and become a safer athletes program. Like in, in your, make a determination about where you want to put your child in a program that can take action. And, it's like a seal, it's like a seal of recognition that this is the type of club and we're serious about our athletes being here to perform and in a meaningful way, that's not harmful for everybody involved. And yeah, and it's so when you drop your kid off, drop them off at a safer athletes club or team or program like that is what I want parents to know, empower yourself and look into it. And, we do charge a pretty nominal fee, frankly for each club to become a member, depending on the size of the club. It ranges from about 15 to$10 per child for the year. Nothing, which is nothing. When you talk about the damage that could be done, right? Yeah. So you're talking about what a dollar a month to have some sort of, support and recognition. So you're not. The Holdens to anybody, take on give yourself and empower yourself. And Katherine, I don't, as far as I know, there is not a program out there. Like this there's, there is not a certifying educational trauma informed program like this out there for athletes, for facilities. Is that what your research has shown? I haven't found one similar to say for athletes. No there isn't, there's pieces. And you could certainly say they're safe, but the point is that we're empowering locally and we're giving the power. So we're giving the power back to the people is really what, like what I want to be able to encourage and force understand that is the direction that we're going. I know, I don't know that there's another program. Have not uncovered one, I will say from a professional point of view again, disclaimer, my opinion. I have dealt with safe sport and I don't. I don't believe that it is not, I don't believe what may be emphatic. It is not addressing the issues that say for athletes are addressing, I have experienced frustration in my own dealings with them. And I know that I have individuals that have come to me with serious frustrations misgivings, and it seems to be, and again, personal opinion, part of the problem. So you heard it here first that, What I've seen, what I've learned about safer athletes is standing alone and apart from what any national governing bodies are doing and what the United States center for safe sport is doing. So that, that is how I think that we'll close this first conversation. What we have coming up next. We're going to talk about the whole parent dynamic. We're going to talk about a little bit more about athletes being in integrity. Learning about the athlete within, we're going to talk about what your organization is doing and your different projects are doing to set Olympians high-level athletes up for success after the sport. I know that there was some statistics out there, Katherine. In reference to the suicide rate and the harm rate for high level athletes, once they're done with this sport, are you familiar with that? About how the let down how they deal with life after the sport? And that's really something that you're also addressing, and then I'm excited to talk you about Katherine. Can you talk a little bit about how people can find you? I know the book is coming out. Tell us about that and also about signing up so people can stay informed about the newsletter. How can they do all of those things to get more information? Sign up. First of all, there's two places for, you got to go and sign up, go to Katherinestarr.com. So that's Katherine with K a T H E R I N a star with two RS. So katherinestarr.com sign up for our newsletter and we will let you know when the book is coming out. It will be in 2021. And and then go to say for athletes. Safe number four athletes that org learn more about becoming a safer athletes program. We are a nonprofit. In all financial support and donations are helpful. Even if it's a small donation, we are extremely grateful to continue to do this work and to help other athletes thrive and change the way that we do sport. And the book. Tell us about that. When is that? When can we expect that and how can we sign up for that release? Join sign up for the newsletter on the Katherine star.com and we'll let you know about when it's coming out. And the name of the book is called rescue me and I will Take you on a journey and you'll understand the meaning of it. And many survivors and yeah. Are, want to be rescued. And so for me, it's about taking you on a journey and finding yourself again. So when we talk about this athlete within you'll have a, you'll be free. All I want to do is bring freedom. Back to to that athlete and develop it. Cause it's really a lifelong relationship that you have. And it's one that, that doesn't end at the end of athletics and we'll spend more time. You brought up and I know ending on this, but it will make you come back to listen to us. Is you brought up the suicide rate of High-level athletes and I do, and very familiar with it. And amongst the Olympians, they have the highest suicide rate out of any demographic of anybody. And and that for me is something. And I'm lucky that I am not in that category. Cause I definitely spent much of my life feeling that I belong there. That's how deep and painful this is. That's why people, that's why we're having this conversation over the next couple of weeks, because we don't want that. We want these, we want, and I can say I want, and I know you want Katherine, I want to see athletes feeling that same pure joy that you talked about at the top of the hour, that same piece. When you jumped into the water, I want them to feel that. When they first are introduced to the athlete within over the course of their athletic career. And I want them to leave the sport and have that same shine and seeing light for all the rest of us. So that's what we're going to talk about. And coming next, we're going to talk about more, the parent dynamic, the athlete within integrity. And so you guys come back for our conversations. It was such a pleasure to have you and such a pleasure to have everyone. So thank you. It was wonderful. Thank you, Judy. Awesome.