Integrity in Sport Series - Episode 2

This episode is brought to you in partnership with

Judie Saunders -  https://askllp.com/attorneys/judie-a-saunders

Katherine Starr - www.katherinestarr.com

Transcript

0:41

Good. Hello. Again, we are back with our second episode of a series with myself, a conversation between myself, Judie Saunders and Katherine Starr. Katherine doesn't need an introduction. If you want the bio, everything is going to be linked in the show notes. We know that Katherine is a amazing dynamic swimmer, but just as important is what we're going to talk about in this episode about. What an athlete encounters, what an athlete may go through. When we talk about the parent dynamic, the coaching, how those cross sections, how there's an intersection between what goes on at a parent, excuse me, an athlete's life and the athlete. As compared to the home life, mom, dad, or whoever is a support system for the athlete. So we're going to talk about that. It's going to be a layered, it's going to be a textured topic that we're going to attempt to unpeel unpack and discuss from a number of different vantage points. Starting off. I want to frame this and a lot of the conversation that Katherine and I have, of course we discuss off, off of Mike. And we'll be bringing some of that conversation, into the recording into the episode. But in particular, Katherine, I'd love to start our discussion talking about the portion of your book, where you are dealing with. An incident with a coach by the name of Fred. And we can start at this point, or you can give us a little bit of introduction leading up to who this character is. Fred. And when you saw the interaction between this coach, Fred and your mother, what did it do? What did it signal to you as an athlete? So if you can frame that, talk about how old you were, where you were in your athletic career and what that meant to you. And we're going to just unpack this, starting at this point to talk about the parent dynamic in a young athlete's life. Okay, thank you. Judy it's and it's a pleasure talking to you on all of this, cause it's it's a great bounce between understanding the, just really digging into the structure and the system of sport and parents being the most integral part of all of this. It's important to understand the role and I feel that I have. Really dug deep reflectively and understanding that within my own parents and my relationship with my dad and certainly with my mother. And so the incident that we're talking about with Judy it's when I swam, I was swimming with a coach named Fred that I referenced in my book and I was. 10 years old at the time. And at eight years old, I had every state record. So I'd already knew that I was special at eight. And then at 10 years old, I had all of the state records in and I was pretty much MVP on every single meet that I went to. And so I was certainly light years above my peers, if you will. And then the other dynamic that's different in my life is that I was already swimming. Like at eight years old, I was already swimming with the high school kids. So I had already so my level of like integration at this point was. Like I was exceptional. It was like clear that I had this, like this talent that, that was beyond others around me and, and and so what happened was, is that there was a spring break and the pool that I swam at it was. Part of, I actually went to the, it was a private school and I went to the great school there. And then the high school was, it was a private, it was a regular swim club that it was not associated with the school, but it was at that same school in their high school pool. And and when the spring break can't happen, I thought I was going to be off. And and, and it was like, no like you can't miss time. I was in this very, vulnerable place in my athletic career in the sense of like I was in it. I was in my career and I do talk about the vulnerabilities that athletes have. And I think this is a whole separate topic, but okay. I'm just going to raise it here is as soon as you've committed to your career, There's when abused, you're vulnerable to being abused, whether the emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, when you are, when your heart is in it. And when you you have committed to that passion that you have inside of you, that's when. The voice starts to retreat. And so this is really where we are in my phase of my life. I am a committed, I'm going to be an Olympian, is my mantra drive of where I am in my life. And then, there's six years to get to that, to get to the Olympics. And I wanted to go to. And so when I had this situation, it was, I get to the pool and I'm like thinking the whole team's going to be there. And it turns out I was the only person. I'm the only person that's showing up to practice. And none of the older kids, not nobody, my age, just in the pool, the school was closed for the most part. They didn't have lights on in the pool. They could turn the lights on, like in the pool, but like the out, like the lights that were in say the above lights. And so there was some lighting in the pool, but not significantly. It's pitch black. And so I am already like in fear and in the personality of this coach was gruff. And demanding and he, there was no compassion whatsoever. There was no consideration. Th there was never a conversation. You weren't going to walk up to your coach and be sad because you had a swim, like a bad swim that was never going to happen. Like you knew that like you were there for business and that was it. And and at the same time, so I S I had struggled with here, I am feeling special, but especial also meant started to translate into doing things that I felt were uncomfortable. And outright not okay, but I'm 10. And I also have this thought that's going through my brain one, the drive to be an Olympian to this idea. If I missed a practice or if I didn't do it, my coach said I needed to do it was going to compromise me in some way. So I believe this like myth about the system, if you will. And. So I get into the pool and I'm like teared up. I'm like, I'm like, there's not a soul there. It's just me and the person that I fear. There was no spread the wealth of the fear. It was just one-on-one fear. And at least like when you have other teammates there, you can hide between, they'll get it. Not me, and not that's the right way to go either, but yeah. And, get in the water and and it gives me a set, which is like intensely boring on top of it. And it was like 10, five hundreds. It was hard. It was boring. And the fear, like there's a few fears. There's a fear with the coach. And then the other fear is staying in solace with yourself and your thoughts. Sure. And so here I don't have anything and there, and it's the intensity of the, having to push yourself through the pain, but finding some sort of aspect of joy to push you through that pain. And that's where I didn't. I didn't have this counterbalance in this situation. And so with this intensity that was going on in the set, I started crying and in my goggles, I, all of a sudden, I couldn't now see the walls. And so here I am, I'm swimming and I knew that I couldn't stop. Like I couldn't stop. And cause it was just me and the intensity of the abuse that, that I was going to get. Like I knew the character of the coach. And, so it's like in silence, you try to make these decisions for yourself. And this is a small child navigating through something this illusion of life, if you will. And and so I learned how to swim and, let the tears out my goggles in full stride without stopping. And as I kept, like trying to navigate this. I finished on one of the first 500 and it wasn't fast enough. Like I didn't do enough. I am trying to like battle with this loneliness and everything else with now. I'm not enough like in, so now you've got to take that negativity with you and try to change your insights. And, in our previous episode, I talked about the athlete within this is the athlete within that I'm talking about to get to that part of me, which is all, what this is about is really understanding who that athlete is. So from that point the intensity of disappointment and not feeling connected at some point I snapped. I just couldn't do this anymore, which is a significant part of my personality and in a good way. Cause you'll see how it's benefited me and, having that sort of resilience in standing up for myself. And so when I get out of the water, I was just like, I'm done. And I get out and I have to go and change in the dark. There's no lights in there stumbling around the locker room and come out and I'm like, and all I could think about is what, how am I going to lie to my mother? And what am I going to tell my dad? I'm not thinking about Talking about this coach and how he harmed me. I'm talking about what I'm going to lie. There is no so there was no like the drive and it wasn't even that my parents and my mother had an obligation to take me and develop my swimming career. And my father had an expectation of greatness that he wanted to see. Me obtain and it wasn't that he was like militant about it at all. He, in that part, it was more a heart issue that I'd had with him over the time. And you read my book, you really get into the depth of that relationship and the complexity of it. But I really want to talk about my mother's relationship in this situation. So when I, when she gets to the pool, First of all my hair is dry and it's like by the time she picked me up and just for the record, this is pre cell phone and so it's not like I could text and say, Hey, I've done some income picked me up. It's Oh, practice ends at this time. I'm going to show up. And, it pick your kid up. There is no, adjustment to this plan, if you will. So it's I already knew like my, what I like, I it's, so I had to plot, I had to plot this. And so my mother, when I get to the car, I'm crying, I'm all upset. She comes back in to talk to Fred. And I thought she was gonna be like my, in my defense to treat me better, here I am, this talented kid. And then, Y my mother is going to take care of me and so what happened was, is that I watched her, he, Fred told a story of just, it's I don't have the words directly what he said, but basically it was my fault, my failures in the pool, my temperament, and there's truth to that, to my temperament, because I did just get out, like I just get out and said, I'm done right. But there was no accountability for me, even being in the situation to begin with, it was already, I was the failure in this situation. And then my mother accepted that as truth. And so when she accepted that, I knew at that point in time, I had no advocate. I had no one to. Redirect the ship. And now I was going to have to explain this dynamic differently to my father and not even differently. I was just going to have to accept whatever I was going to accept. And no one went back and said, Oh, wait a minute. This situation wasn't right. It was just me witnessing this dynamic change that happened between like my mother who inserted just frame the marital, like how I grew up from, like my parents' dynamic and it's not from a judgment, but from. You know what it was. My mother took care of the children and and it was her job to get us to our, to activity. We all swam at the time, but that was like her job, and, and my dad was the, the breadwinner of the family, just the way the dynamic was. But I also saw this sort of my mother took a back seat. And I really didn't, it like took the same backseat that she took with my dad. And sir, so let me, because this is so good, I'm going to circle back. I want us to take a break right here, because you're going into what I see as another layer this kind of the second layer. So far you've told us you've set it up so that the listener understands you were clearly talented, you're talented, it's now being identified in. With individuals outside of your immediate circle, mom, dad, brother, and sister coaches are now realizing. So now a bit, your circle is widening. You're starting to get more acknowledgement, more praise more other individuals see the skill, the talent. And you said to us that. There was a pivotal point because once you realize that you in your child, and at that point, the child's mind at eight and eight, nine, 10, and other people, then you start to become committed to this goal, to this dream. And you said that's where. An athlete becomes vulnerable when your heart, when you're committed. And I think that's important if we could set up some indicators, set up maybe a structure so that the parents listening to this can have some awakening and some realization. So I, in my mind, and the way that I'd like to frame this is that one, when. Not only the parents recognize coaches recognized, but also the child recognizes that they have a skill, a talent, that's an important milestone. So to speak on this road, on this journey and that will leave or could open to some type of vulnerability. So that's the one thing. So not necessarily a beware, but just. Parents know what's coming. And then you were talking to us about there's this instance where you encounter this this coach, Fred it's pitch black, which to me is symbolic. So now we have. W we're telling parents to be aware. We're seeing that there's the possibility that you and your child may be vulnerable to negative influences on the child's journey to become whomever, a world-class athlete and Olympian. And then you give this symbolic story about it being pitch black and. You're a ten-year-old you're young at that time. And here you encounter this coach who it appears from what you're saying has no understanding of yes. There's talent, but there's also a child here. So can you talk to us a little bit about what do you think. Was ignored at that point. Was it placing you with a coach? Could, was Fred maybe. Does he represent a coach that has skill has training, but has absolutely no understanding of child development of child athletes? Is that, are you, have you come to learn about that or know that about this coach and what should parents do if they encounter the quote unquote Fred's in their child's life? Is that a point where a parent should say. You know what? Wait a minute. This is dark in here. It's pitch-black should I trust this coach's tactic? And just leave my kitchen. I say something. What would you say to a parent who's running into their Fred, their first Fred in their child's life. You brought up a lot of great questions, so I'll see if I can answer them all. So the first issue is. When we talk about, so you've identified your child as a parent. So first what's happening is, and I'm going to, there's, I'm developing a program to parenting now parenting an elite athlete with integrity. And and that's where I feel like I'm wanna understand, like I need parents to see, they need to be in integrity with themselves. As also athletes need to be in integrity. Like I need to change the integrity structure with everybody in this dining room. And so that, and developing that seminar to, to drive and give like skills and valid tools to be able to address this. But the concern is really where I think that I have. Come to, they have acceptance and it's a tough, and it's a tough pill to swallow, but I'm gonna go in this direction. We have choice. And there's this idea that, so I swam in a program that was it was certainly convenient. It was, part of the, I go to grade school there. I can, walk across the field and we're at the high school pool. It's afterwards, like there was this there's convenience associates with this it's the better program and had the better things, this particular coach, he wasn't anything to be. To talk out, to ride home about, he was just the coach that was hired. It was just, it wasn't like he had produced athletes. And you don't really have coaches like that young. I was just stepping into identifying produce a coach producing. Coach that actually brought you up work with just having a talented kid, learning that you have talent and being stuck in this situation. And so what happens? I think there's this, the tough questions are my kid has talent and this coach is being abused, abusive to my kid. Do I look the other way and not address it because I don't want to take away the talent from that kid. Or not let it develop and foster. And so we live ourselves and thinking okay, I'd have to drive an hour. And it's inconvenient for my life to be able to continue to develop this child. And so then you're like in this, but I'm not as the child, I'm not privy to those like dilemmas and conversations that are within my parents' needs. Yeah. No. And so they're trying to balance, how do you develop. In a bad situation. And it's let's just ignore it's about situation. Let's just ignore that this is like happening. And then let's focus on your times and let's focus on things that are like result driven. And so then we shifted the conversation and certainly I'm in the time section of a sport. And so then it, while she's winning in Knossos, she's swimming faster every time. So all of these. The outcome of me is minimizing the decisions and admitting that there's an abusive situation here. Yeah. And I think for parents, what I'd like, and I'm like, that's not in integrity with anybody. And so I want to work with them to change that. So then let me help you make a better decision. Let me help you understand what part of your personality is limiting you from having a dream for everybody here? And that's where I feel like this there's this either or in this situation, like there's this road that you can take towards the abuse and there's this road that says I can't develop my kid, but there's another path we just, I need to spend some time and understanding. Let's get clear of what the goals are here. Let's get clear of the personality of the coach for your kid. And let's get clear on it. What do you SA, what are you forcing to give up for this? The cost benefit analysis of all this. And nobody thinks that through are you going to have an unproductive person when they're done with sport? Because they've been so hurt in this situation? That's that is what you have produced by keeping your child in an abusive situation. Katherine, what you're touching on right now. And I, I don't, because again, this topic right here could be a whole nother episode, but I'll tie up this and then lead into remind you of another question. Another thought that I want us to discuss with your answer is reminding me of a recent I came across CR McCormick, who is a professional soccer women's soccer player in Canada. And Siara was chronicling the sex, physical and emotional abuse there in Canada. And she mentioned about the abuse. That just that point, that when you're in the abuse, when you come across coaches that are abusive, you feel as if you have no. Options it's either take the abuse or stay silent. And then she said that other road is in fact an option, but she said, what was pivotal to that was understanding that you're in a bubble, the bubble of high level sports, the bubble of getting to the next goal makes you believe you have no options. So that. So what you're saying there is so important parents, there is another way there is another option. So then tell me going looping back to the story, the drive that you had, this myth, that fear, the Fred being rough, Fred being you, then seeing this, you then in your mind believing wait a minute. Is this the way you Jew you say you get out of the pool, it's dark in there. Your mother comes to pick you up and you're talking about, you see that shift. You understand that when mom goes in and talks to Fred, that you're not defended. I know in my practice I've come across situations where it was, There was at some point where there was a breakdown where there's something going on and for whatever reason, maybe it's the way the coach presented themselves to the parents and I've seen it and I've felt it. That in a lot of ways, not only are children groaned, but parents are groomed. So tease out and talk a little bit more about that idea of the interaction that you saw and what you felt when mom interacts with Fred, would you then now see that there's a shift in the dynamics. So if you talk to us a little bit more about that you brought up a lot of topics, so I'm going to start with grooming. So that's where we ended there. So there's different. So there's a diff different personalities with a coach when it comes to being an abusive coach and how the grooming is affected. And then the grooming with sexual abuse and parents are groomed in both directions. So the rent, when you're dealing with the physical, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, Aspect of it, then not when it's not sexual. That grooming is a lot more structured to do with the system itself. And so the, your it's not just the coach, it's the whole the pursuit of this finite goal that sets you up in this place. So you've been groomed to believe that. You need to suffer, you need to have these experiences in order to be great. Like all of that, like there's lies in the system that have been bought. And I put that in the grooming such in, because that's like the whole thing. And then I bring in this. The athlete within an athlete integrity, which we'll do a whole show on that. And the end of our series to really dive into what I mean about that. All of our goals have become external in like how many people make the Olympic team two or six, like the 300,000 people in gymnastics and six. Six girls make that team and maybe eight, they have a couple extras, right? So it's a very small finite goal yet the value of sport and the value of everything that are associated with it. Those values, if they're held correctly and this still falls in the grooming, like those values. Are what you want to get out of the sport. It's not this end result only being an Olympian. And so when you're stuck on that, you are in the grooming path, you are in the system, you are in the myth because it's no longer an internal drive of what you're trying to obtain in, in the. In the system there, right? So it's become somebody else's goal for you. And then you have the grooming aspect of the sexual abuse and the character of a sexual abusing coach. Generally very charismatic. They produce a lot of Olympians, they pray and it's a whole different. And so the parents also get groomed in. This believing the MIS and when your kid is that good, then you're also, you're going to turn the keys over, right? So in there, and you believe every action that this coach is doing for your child is because you have the shared dream shared goal. And this idea of success. And so you're. And so when you have the purity of that dream, what you believe is to be a purity of that, then no darkness can come in. You, you can't see it. And once again, you've gone to this external drive for something that I want to bring all the way back inside. I want you to understand like who that athlete is, what those athletes what's the real drive. And a lot of it is this skill and self esteem. Those are the things that come with it. And like I said they did dig more into that, but going back to Sierra McCormick and the soccer thing, she actually called me up after I did the end of sport podcast, and she lives near here and she goes, I was walking. I picked a random one. I picked you. And I was like, no way we live like close by. So we had a conversation. And one of the things we talked about was this addiction. Two in this part, in the bubble, like this addiction to, to sport and like just the accomplishment and that's where I get into the side of praise. And I write a lot about how praise influenced me in. I knew I needed the price from my parents. I needed the praise from my coach and this all fits into like how grooming that is the grooming. That is what it is because my identity was wrapped up in my success. Like I was no longer just, as I, my, my birth name Annabel, I was no longer that I was whatever accolades you're going to put behind that. Whatever we're all record. We're all, world ranked, Olympian, national champion, like whatever those additional things are that you get to say after your name, like that was the drive, but it really was, is the drive to be your highest version of yourself and the best like to like the original. Austerity with the Olympics is to be was about this or this moral and ethical drive. And it was to show the country's morale and ethics of their people. Why? And we've lost that sense. It's become like, Oh me, I'm going to be famous versus, we like we can base. Our understanding of this culture and collection of people based on their personal hard work and their personal drive towards that. And so then it takes it in to the inside version of yourself and not these external validators, which is how grooming makes its way into the system. To begin with. And that's the part where like for me, I would say that my, I was vulnerable because I had already, like at eight years old decided I was going to be an Olympian. So that's where my vulnerability was. So I felt, I can't say what voice do I have? And it gets quieter and quieter. And you spend all this time, like shoving it down. And then you need the, shove it down with things to keep it down food, when you get older drinking, like all those things, because you, cause you don't want to hear it. You don't want it. Like you really don't want to honor what you're, what you know, to be true because we're taught that's not okay. And I'm here to produce. And you separated your sense of self from your, the athlete. Like you've made them two versions of yourself and we want to integrate them back in. Tell us about, you had mentioned earlier. Mom is mom comes to pick you up. Your hair is dry. And you start to think about in your mind, what am I going to say? Even before she gets there? What am I going to say to mom? What am I going to say to dad? Talk to, and before I get to the post, the actual question, I'll just set it up like this. I think still, even when you were that age and even today, fast forward, I know from, dropping off my sons, dropping off my kids and myself being the primary individual involved with and. With the kids' sports, either drop off, so to speak, I think. And so when I look around and I survey, so even anecdotally, I feel competent in saying that it usually still is mothers who are orchestrating or managing the athletic schedule, the drop off schedule, the personal one-on-one interaction with the coaches. And I could say also adding to that, we still are mothers of my age. A lot of us still are groomed where you had most people in power are, men are in a male form, so we still have kind of those roles. So here's the question, setting that up. What can you talk to mothers to parents about. What they should be mindful of when they're going to deal with coaches and especially not just talking about the coaches that are listening and the coaches, when you're going to deal with a strong, hyper-masculine male coach. And you were trying to defend, or you sense that there's something wrong? What can that mother, what can that parent do to advocate on behalf of their child in the, in that situation? There's, this is where we get back to that, the hard choices. And say for athletes, we have a program that we want sports clubs to adopt and become a safer athletes club. So there's structure, there's policy, there's a culture that's going to get created within that system. There's a way to respond to it. And so any parent out there coaches like adopt our program and become that. Cause what it does is it creates a way to when there's issues and concerns is that there's a way to have that communication. And right now there's no central like the, who has the power is in one place that has no way out of the system. And it's really like hitting a brick wall. So if more people adopt a safer athletes structure within their sports programs. And so when they drop their kid off, they have an understanding of w. How people are going to react and respond and how issues can get resolved, and how you can shift and change culture. Because one of the issues within sport is that the coaching at the younger ages, and it's, there's a more of a balance between a male and female coaches, but there's actually, as we move up the system, it's really 80, 80% of male coaches. Okay. And that it used to be 90, so it's come down a little bit and it's like a novel thing to even have a female coach. Like here we are in 2021 and Oh look, we have our first female coach in the NFL. So it's not, and the, and then there's two very, and from a scientific standpoint and a study standpoint, the female coaches are actually more likely to be emotionally abusive. Than the male coaches and and men coaches, cause there's the numbers are greater. It's, significantly on the sexual abuse side. And so in, just from, the culture and dynamic and breakdown but going back to what parents can do, you can make hard choices. And so you have a couple things is we're gonna, we're gonna have programs designed to give you skills and communication structures in order to use your voice. Cause I don't think you are. And I don't think that, that you even have one or have the ability to say something and how to say it. And and I don't think, I don't think athletes know how to speak and I don't think parents know how to speak. And I don't think coaches They've been. They've been given so much yeah, with you're going to make my kid great. And it's not that you want to change that, but you want to teach coaches how to. I'm doing a talk and going to work with coaches and it's called coach the line and what, and I think our next call is going to be more about that. So we'll, I'll lead that in more time on the coaching side of it, what they can do, but in a nutshell, there's the going from empowerment to control. And how do you stay in the middle there? So how do you stay there? And and that's what I find is that parents, when they're, they don't have the skillset to deal with a controlling coach and they're seeing how that affects their child. Cause they also don't like, it's not in their marriage, it's not in their workplace. It's not a skill set that they have or a trait that they deal with. And then all of a sudden they have this adult male that's overseeing their child. And from a child perspective, that's a pseudo parent. Like you're leaving the parent family. In order to go and be raised in your talents, being raised with this coach. And so you have this, the complexity of a teenager, you have the complexity of, parents having the right traits and development to be able to support this perfect storm is really what it is. What Fred now for mom arrives, you're there. You're witnessing, or you come to understand that Fred has just laid into you, blaming you. Your side of the story is not brought in. Why did you get out of the pool? What can parent. Do rather not. What can parents do? Should parents consider it a warning sign? When they see their child exiting the gym, the pool, the soccer field crying, and a coach starts to degrade or belittle the child. Is that a warning sign? What would you advise parents to do when they're faced with that scenario? I know that's happened. I've had people explain that to me, where their child is run out there in the parking lot. The coach is right on the heels of the child telling, doing damage control, spinning the story and parent gets in the child, excuse me, parent gets in the car and they go home. There's not much discussion after, what do you advise parents in that situation that you were in with? Their Fred will, he'll be symbolic this episode of an abusive coaching style. What would you advise parents to do in that situation? And that's where he it's like you have these hard choices, and. One, it goes back to put your kid in a program that has like a safer athlete structure in place. So if you report the issue and no response has happened within that sports program, you're not in the right sports program. And it doesn't matter how many kids get produced out of that program. And I have people saying we can't get to another pool. Like this is the only pool in town, or this is the only place to go and play soccer. And, and there's all these like limitations that are in the way. So then you got to go, is this and this, and it's so hard. It's a hard question. And S and do you continue to allow that abuse to happen to your kid and find something else for them to do like another way to nurture their talent? And if so, and if everybody takes the stand. Then, even a portion of the parents take the stand of making the right decision. Cause I sure you, if it's happening to one, it will happen to another. And even if it's only happening to one person. When that person removes itself from that situation, it's the next person. It's the dynamic that, that coach needs in his using to create that chaos, to create that abuse in that situation. So it'll just be the next person that's going to experience it. But when it's not you, when it's not your kid, you seem to defend it and go, Oh, that coach is fine, but what people fail to understand? And this is where I feel like parents need to be more understanding of other kids experience and how that really is affecting. If one kid is being singled out, which you hear it all the time, or if a few kids are being singled out and they're treated differently than somebody else, that is an abusive situation. And I would help the parents understand it's abusive when it's not equal. And there's the athlete who's there because they don't want it to be there and they're just causing ruckus and what have you. And, but when you have a collection of kids that are being targeted, that is the personality of that coach, that thrives on coaching through Ru. Fear. And so in parents, I hate to tell you, you gotta make a hard decision and pull your kid out, and you gotta do what's best. Cause it's the lifelong damages that happen in sport. I just know from my own experience, like I hear I am aging myself, but, I was 16 when the 84 Olympics, so you can do the math, but yeah, I know. And so what I know for me is that these events they're deeply defined in your life. And so we're either going to keep harming and keep and they suck energy out of you to keep this pain in you. And so for me, it's it's not worth it. And I know you think the win, and I know you think the metal, and I know you think like these other things are a good compromise to this pain. And it's not because if enough people say we can't be part of the system, then the system can change. But if you stay in the system with this idea of it is the system. And in order to Excel or do this, I have to, my kid has to have this experience. That's it? That's it, Katherine. You really are what you're going to, and what you're setting up right now is what. We all know is needed. Is institutional change. Parents. It's the athlete. It's the person who has to stick their neck out, maybe the first time, but it's making it better and it's setting up a clear line in a demark as to what is wrong. What is unacceptable? No longer. It's the balancing test. It's the traditional balancing test. Do we want. The continuation of the metals. And then do we want another generation of deeply wounded people, out in the world? And I know that's not what I want. Tell us. Let's transition. Now you were saying that let's talk about. Let's go to parent integrity, parents being inline aligned with their self aligned with the bigger the objective. You mentioned that as you we're noticing as a child, what was going on the conversation, the dynamic between Fred and your mother, the, that your mom being overseeing you and your other siblings, their swimming activities, her role, and then also you were able to at some point. Able to compare that role that your mother had with the role that she had in, within the family and with your father. Can you talk about parents being in tech, being in integrity and how that could then bleed over and impact the child athlete and their pursuit of their career athletic career? So here's my thing with parents and how abuse stays in the system is I think you're blinded. I believe you're blinded when you, yourself are out of integrity. So as an athlete, I'm out of integrity when I'm already telling you, I'm thinking of waste a lie and so that makes me out of integrity. Not that I'm any different from any 10 year old who wants to lie to their parents. But, but it doesn't justify it. And and then the other part of it is I think I said, unless episode, we're all liars. And so our parents whatever, they're like, whatever my, like my parents wanted out of me. Like it's they wanted also, like my dad wanted to be called Annabel's that right? It gave him this sense of pride. It was like a false sense of pride, but it gave him a sense of my accomplishments gave him fed this, Oh, this is my daughter. And so right there, he's out of integrity. With wanting that, do you know what, like that, that filled some aspect of itself. And whatever that is, and, and I even will say kids stay in just having spoken to so many parents and kids in situations, since I started say for athletes, Is that, kids stay in these abusive situations and they're, they're primed to get a full scholarship in college. And so this is an easy example of how parents can be out of integrity and keep your kid involved in a situation is that we all know college is expensive, so are you. Setting your kids up to where you're going to get a full scholarship college. And then you just define the sort of financial aspect of what's going to save us a quarter million dollars or it, we don't have the money to send you to college. You can go to a great college, like all the things you justify. I find that then once you start going down that path, you're out of integrity with once again, the development of, and what's the purposeful destination of the talents that your child has. And and it comes in different shapes and forms. And and then the other aspect of it is I think that, just from. Just being exposed to my own experience. And so many others is that we're just, we, you're blinded by the truth. There's you know, like you can't see it because you have this goal that's out of integrity. And so you can't see the intensity of the abuse, right? So there's this and not every parent is out of integrity. We're not even saying that, but what I'm saying when your aspects of your life are not in alignment, That's where you get lost. That's where your kid gets lost. You may dealing with meritable problems. She may, have other issues like dark issues that haven't been resolved and all of that sets this athlete up. To be vulnerable when their parents not in integrity. So give, I really think that the points you're making are so important, give us a salient, bring it home. What you're seeing about appearance, not being integrity and how it could. Impact their athlete, their child. What can you give us a story? You will you gave us one about your father wanting to be identified or wanting to be called, Annabel's dead. And it sounds like he's identifying with your wins with your career. Do you have any other Instances from your life where it is an indicator to you, even as a child that, Hey, something's wrong and we'll show, and we'll give our listeners an example of what it is so they can know they can be aware when they're out of integrity. What was it? Did you have any other examples from your career? Yeah let's drive this up to unless involve sexual abuse on this part of it. And we've spoken, about this incident. So this is So my sexual abuse started at 14 and I was in my first Olympics at 16, and now we're at Olympic trials in 1988. And my parents and actually my grandmother was there as well, that came to watch me swim and make the team. And we're in the restaurant at the hotel and I'm eating dinner with my parents and. And Paul comes along and he puts his hand on my shoulder. And at this time I'm in training in the States, I'm at the university of Texas training and I'm not, he's not my club coach, but he's the head Olympic coach. And the way that the teams are selected and have always been selected, the Olympics was a little different. And I explained that in my book. But it was, there's a lot of power over. What I was going to swim. Like he was the dictator of, even if I made the team that he could change those elements. And so my, all my father wanted was I wouldn't say all the things that my father wanted were. And move it up from saying Annabel's daughter to my daughter's in Olympia. And, to be able to like now carry that title. It's the highest of titles beyond saying a gold medalist, which is really where the title that he wanted and felt that I had the talents for it. And so I felt that his goals for me. Blinded him from seeing blatant harm. That was that I was experiencing. And and my mother is supporting my father. And so he couldn't see that touch was causing me harm. Because that coach is the head Olympic coach. And I had already gone through the dynamic over the last six years at this point of my father telling me that I misbehaving, I need to get in line. I need to go to military school, like all the things that were, if I changed, then I wouldn't have these struggles, but I'm not saying, he sexually abused me. I don't even know that language. All I know is that. That I'm having this secret life. That's really not that secret. And it's out in plain sight. And I talk about my experience of being on TV and being interviewed and it's out in plain sight. And listeners you'll have to, you have to, I can't wait for this book to come out because Katherine, what you're talking about, just so that the listeners know by the time Paul is in the restaurant and he is the perpetrator. He is, he's the person who sexually violated you. By the time you get to that point, there had been several indicators. And I'm saying that as. A reader, there were several indicators that you were in distress that you were being sexually abused. And just to clarify, it seems as if not, it seems your parents, because they were out of integrity, they didn't pick up on these very clear warning signs, which led to things such as your being you're acting out, you're acting bad, the blame, again, being placed on you, the athlete. So I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah, and I don't I don't think my parents are unique. I'm not throwing them under the bus. I actually think that this is a a systemic problem with parents and their desires and their goals for their athlete child. And, and and I also think that my parents drank the Kool-Aid, if you will. And that's part of the problem. And that's why I want to drive this conversation back to going back to this athlete within and getting into athlete integrity. It's also the parent integrity, right? So w like having your own, you can't live your athletic career through your child's athletic career. That's done and gone. Like you need to deal with that aspect of yourself. And my father, one of his things was he didn't make the Olympic team because of like the cold war. And he was in medical school when he could've made it, like it was all these elements that then also that's what made him out of integrity with me. Like he wanted what he didn't get himself. And so that also blinded him from seeing, Oh, that possibly can't be comfortable for my daughter to experience that. Or, or is that tone of his voice different than what I'm really hearing? Do you know what, like we missed that, and because there's this other idea of where this road is going, therefore there can't possibly be any danger on it. Cause we already know at the end of the destination is right. So Katherine. Here's I know that there's good news. Your story itself is good news. The fact that we're here talking to you is great news. And so I want to bring up two more points. I know that you may have some points. I want to bring up two more points. The one point is there something you can. Tell parents tell mothers who we know still from my own little scientific anecdotal who are still managing their children's career. Is there something granular you can tell a parent if they say, you know what, Katherine, you know what Judy, I'm listening to you guys. And I want to start today with a baby step to become. Better integrity, have more integrity with myself so that I then can raise this child so that I can then guide this athlete. What's one step that a parent can take. And I apologize. My dog seems to be yelling. Barking after everything. What's one step that a parent can take. To bring themselves into integrity even today, even while they're listening. The F the first thing that I would do is get clear on what your dreams are for yourself. Okay. And how, and then see the step that you have between you and your kids dream. What's your dream for that? And it really goes into I don't have a date set, but putting together a a webinar a six week webinar, if you will, on as I mentioned earlier, parenting a gifted athlete with integrity. And and that's. It really is sanding your internal voice and how it's driving you. And so I really want to bring that in, so to give you tools and structure to change and how you interact. And so that for me, like the one thing I would do is have your own dream that separate from your child's dream. Okay. Okay. So that's one thing that someone can start right now, just becoming aware of their dream, their goals, making it separate and apart and walling it off. So to speak. I'm interpreting what you're saying while I get off from that of your child athlete. So I'm going to say one more thing. I'm going to have something on screen for that. So I have three, the siblings there's, so I'm number three or four and most talented early on the, physically talented. And I would say that the dynamic in my family was significantly shifted because of my talent. And I would say for parents out there, I would say one of the things you actually could do is also create an equal system amongst your children, because there's a big strain on your talented kid and the dynamic that they have with their siblings. And and I would be making extra effort with the other siblings. And not have this focused hyper-focused attention all on the one talented one and ha and be very conscientious of how you set that up. I love that two steps, two steps that a parent listening to this can take right now to actionable steps determining what your dreams are, what your goals are identifying and ensuring that they're separate and apart from your athlete and also being mindful and looking at the structure that the talented child may have and how that impacts the larger family unit. There. That's good news. That parents can take right now to start bringing themselves back into integrity. And that of course will model and show a talented athlete, how they themselves can also be integrity, which is the whole point. I think of the pursuit of athleticism from life it's to be in integrity while you're in the sport. And of course, after this sport, one of the main good news takeaways that I'm getting, from this portion of our conversation, Katherine, is that there are options. You are not stuck. The option is not okay. Abusive coaching clamped down and take it live in fear. Tough it out. That's not the option. And because why is that? Not the option because it's obvious you were saying before that it deeply impacts the athlete, the child's life into the teen years into adulthood and on it deeply negatively impacts that, which reminds me of a story of who we're talking to just before we hit. The record button of what we don't want to see happen to a talent, any child, but a talented athlete. Can you talk, tell us about what we don't want to happen and talk about the swim that you had under the golden great golden gate bridge. One of the most beautiful structures. Of course, we know. Talk a little bit about that and what you realized during that swim. Yeah, that was a special swim that day. So the swim was West swim, swim across America. So I'll just kinda set it up. So he knew what I was doing. So they would, it was they would bring in Olympians. And so the N the money was raised and donated for San Francisco children's hospital in Oakland children's hospital. And they do these swims across the country. So certainly it's a great organization. And and we would visit the children in the cancer ward that the day before, and some of them had terminal cancer and some of them did not. And they were just excited to meet an Olympian and we'd bring in our Olympic gear and, they got to have this whole experience and it was heart wrenching. Like it's just heart wrenching. And so when I, the next morning we took a boat out and they, talk about these different, inspiring stories of, surviving cancer. And then they dropped us underneath the golden gate bridge. And this was at a point in time in my life. I think my father had just died within the last year or two. And I was struggling, the continued struggle with myself which I did up until I started say for athletes. And I think I had just. I was at the precipice of starting say for athletes about this time. And I, and we got me jump off and it's literally underneath the golden gate bridge. And and there's the currents in the Bay are very strong. And and I don't know if you know the Bay, but you got the golden gate bridge. And then there's the George Lucas compound, which is I breathe to the right. So to the left would have been Moran County. And then to the rightest. San Francisco and literally the George compound. And so I'm swimming along and I'm swimming underneath the gold, the bridge, and the, and I'm just having this sort of reflective moments of a lot of people had jumped to their death here. And, it was such a like here I was I'd survived. I knew my spirit heads survived. And it wasn't, I hadn't healed. But I had survived up into this point. And for some reason I hadn't killed myself and I had died and, and so I was, and then after I'm assuming that I had this reflection. And what I realized was I was stuck. I'm looking at the same thing. I'm not moving. People have been swimming the other way. I'm having to put more force and energy into my swim. And and I'm starting to have this internal rise up of frustration and anger and all this other stuff. And it was that same anger that I've never. Like that I never externally was able to share in a, through therapeutic stuff. Yes. But and even then that was a physical moment that I wrote about in my book. But th the voices of frustration of wanting to quit and be done and all this other stuff, like I just wanted the sexual abuse to stop. I just wanted it all to just stop and just be free. And, and then I had this realization that it's wait a minute, there's these kids, they can't just say, I don't want cancer. They don't get to just have this moment of Oh, I'm done with this now. Let me go on with my life. We have these like internal struggles that we have and, and. And but in that moment I was just like fighting the currents, fighting everything else. And I was in what they call slip Eddy, and it sends you right back out into the Pacific ocean and there's creatures in this place and, unbeknownst to me, you can't see very far, so you don't really know what's there. And, but I, and I was just in that moment of just I just gave up. I like had this moment of I can't do it anymore. I'm like done. Like I was tired with life. I was tired with everything. I was just tired and Don and as soon as I did that, literally within seconds, and I've had these moments of spiritual, natural moments of moving me back onto the path. The sea lion comes up within inches of me and it starts pushing me out of this current. And it's like for about five minutes, it just kept nudging and nudging and pushing me right on out of the current. So I could actually get back into the flow of life and I can actually flow right back into or something to Chrissy field. And, and that's kinda where I felt, feel like really what I'm trying to help people do in what we're trying to accomplish here is really let me nudge you back into the flow of life. Let me help you nudge you back into being an adult integrity with yourself, with the organizations that I work with and who I partner with. And yeah let me guide you back that way. And I feel like we all need a sea lion, which is actually why life coaching and who will do the parent integrity program with and cause we all need this help in this structure. To get back and it just shows up differently. But today that day I needed a sea lion. And it was something that I could connect to. And that to me is like we all have that, these moments in life where we get that help and support. And and that's what I feel like we're trying to do now. And so from an actionable step, going forward, adopt, say for athletes, right? Attend these webinars that we're starting to have available through, say for athletes. And. And Katherine start show up for our, like things that we can do that can, they can really help impact and change your life in a meaningful way where you walked through your sporting experience as a parent and with pride. You develop your child, not just into their athletic career, but into their after athletic career. And so you said you captured it, that story I loved. And I'm glad that you told it, it brings it out. That's it? It can be done. We, you, we save her athletes, your work we're doing in my practice, in my law office. We want to get these athletes out of what did you call it? Slip Eddie. Is that the, yeah, it's called slip, Betty. Let's get that. Let's get our children. Let's get our talented athletes away from slip Eddy, which I think is symbolic of the current system. And what, where we find athletes. I think that wraps up, I think that's a good place to stop unless there was something in the conversation that I missed. I know that we have You more conversations coming up that we're going to share with individuals. We're going to continue. We're going to talk about the athlete within that integrity. We're going to continue over each episode to talk about safer athletes. I'm going to carry information on my website. About the program, which I love what you all are doing. Is there anything else that you wanted to leave that I didn't touch on? I think we're good. Like support, safe athletes in any way you can, even if it's$5 we for nonprofits, so come support us and send the word out and share the show, the website and and. Change, it's gonna take a village and a community to make this change. So one person and a, so be part of the, be part of change and be part of the movement and come join us and come live a dream field wide. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome. All right. Thank you. So until next time, we'll talk to everyone soon. We'll see you next