Integrity in Sport Series - Episode 3

This episode is brought to you in partnership with

Judie Saunders -  https://askllp.com/attorneys/judie-a-saunders

Katherine Starr - www.katherinestarr.com

Transcript

0:41

Another conversation with Katherine Starr and myself, Judie Saunders. I'm excited for today's conversation because we've been unfolding and talking about so many different things today. We're going to focus on the coach, the athlete dynamic. Katherine's going to really let us get a deep dive from her perspective, her experience. We're going to talk about the different coaches that were in Katherine's life. What these coaches are symbolic. We're also going to cover what is good coaching versus bad coaching. So parents could be aware different tips, what to look for characteristics of a good coach versus a bad coach. And that very prevalent topic of empowerment versus control. We hear those words used a lot in the coaching dynamic. What does it mean to empower an athlete versus control? And we're also going to, I think that will wrap up our discussion, talking a little bit about just different. How parents can think about when they have that conversation or they have their child that's in vested. The family has invested when you get to a certain level of sport. It's not only the athlete, it's the family that's invested and what to do. If your athlete says to you, they don't want to participate anymore. They don't want to work on that, but so let's start off. Can you talk to us, just start off Katherine talking about what do you mean by when you use the term and you use it in your book and we've used it offline in our discussions for coaches to coach the line. What does that mean? What does that whole concept. That, I mean that we're going to go right into that. Let me back up before we go into and into going through that, because I actually want to share really how I started say for athletes, which came from myself coaching. So having been the athlete and then, being in this position of a coach, which was enlightening to me, which just changed my whole life and redirected my path to address. The issue in general and really we're Safe4Athletes started from and so I went into coaching really cause I was lost and I didn't think I had any other skills. And then I think that will drive this other part of the conversation later on when I come back to talking about the different dynamics is what have you that get developed within coaching. So I have this. So I was coaching this group of kids. They were young sort of middle school, age kids. And and I talk about this a lot. There's a point in time when you become vulnerable to your coach, when you've committed to your sport. And that's where that vulnerability of being exposed to this level of abuse and where you're, where you start, where you're silencing within yourself. And so what happened was it was this young boy. He was 12, almost 13 at the time. And he was this really talented ballet dancer. And he got bullied extensively in school. And so he came to swam as to find another sport. And when he came to me great kid, and when he came to me hit the other because he hadn't swam before the other, his peers. We're much faster than him. And so over the course of six weeks, he was like to give you a sort of a time reference. We would do like hundreds freestyle and he, at the time he started on when be like one 40 and my, the way I had trained him, which was, I w I was a hard coach, but I was so pleasant. With the coaching and that's where I think men will roll into the empowerment versus construct. And because I was, I want to, empower the athlete to be able to drive from within their own, like their own diseases. Are you six? And so the balance of all this, so I watched this young boy and over six weeks, he went from holding one. Forties to be able to be on one 10. And now all of a sudden he's like very quickly in with his peers and actually showing talent within a sport that he's never been in. And his whole, like bullying stopped his life changed exponentially. You started to have a friend group, a peer group and and he started giving me the coach, the accolades. For those changes and successes that he'd had in his life that he desired. And what I started witnessing with this with this young boy was the way that he would just like what should I do next? Like he would do anything that I asked anything. And so then I was like, Whoa, wait a minute. There's this vulnerability that's now been. Between myself and this young boy, like he, it was just like, he'd given his whole control over to me as a coach because I had just transformed his whole life. And that's when I understood how the coach athlete dynamic starts to develop. And he he had lost a sense of self and gained a sense of self that he desired at the same time. So Katherine, let me ask you this. Now you are. Unaware individual. That this is happening. You were under, you understood. You recognize that there was developing this new set of power that you could have what happens. If you have a coach who is not aware and who does not have the best intentions, they don't know. They, you see the energy, you see the child now giving you the ability to, or impugning on you. Just tell me what you want me to do, coach. I'll do it. Giving you that control. So to speak, the child doesn't even know that they're doing it. What happens though? If we don't have a Katherine star, who's aware of that whose understands that power dynamic, what could go wrong then? That's why I started say fraud lights, and that's why I'm working on developing on the Katherine star side of things to create tools, structures, programs, and change, because really what happens is that. We already have all of the voices in the red flags that are being, we're being told those. Even as a young person, like you're you get an intuitive connection with your coach. And and what happens is we shut that voice down, so we're taught to just as to. Every empowerment from an athlete and listening to high level athletes, like how do you do it? Like you shut your voice a step down, right? You overcome like you override, like that's what we've been taught, what to do in order to be successful. For me, I want to teach you a different way to be successful. So let me now let's get back to this coach dynamic. Now, when I talk about coaching the line. So there's there's the line being, how do you coach all the way up to empowerment and then not control the athlete? Cause there's actually something about in there's the construct within, and I noticed this in with my own. My own self, having spent the last year working with the life coach and taking an in, in working with this person and losing almost, together, we will run 80, almost 90 pounds together. We've lost together. And so it created this awareness. And I understand that people don't have awareness and we're going to get to answering that. But I want to explain why there is no awareness. And so what I realized was is that I'm completely accountable to this person. And so in all of my coaches, I was accountable in what they got to say is, and it goes into the same dynamic that I talked about a couple I think our first episode when I talked about my dad. And she became, or, the last episode we're talking about the parents' identity. So the parents' identity is, their child's success, their Annabel's, Annabel's dad, like this relabeling that happens in the same way with the coach. So you have this, that is where the. Where are you start where the coach starts moving into the control side of things to maintain their identity, external identity that they're creating? Oh, they have so many Olympians. Oh, they have so many like whatever it is, their accolades are, it's led with their accolades. It's not led with the athletic development of self, that an ad. Who talks about what athletes after they've left sport and have been successful in life, right? Let's have a conversation with how many of those Olympians, and as we know, the Olympians are. There are some sad statistics that aren't out into the world, just of the travesties that have, yeah. It happened to Olympians thereafter and you would go well, if they're Olympians, therefore they should be Olympians in life with their professional career. But they ended up having a couple of different path changes, which is around relationships and around production and in a working world. So there's some under-performance in that area. So no one talks about that. We just talk to this one place within the sports world. And when a coach is coaching the empowerment side of things and they move over into the control. What they're doing is they're taking away the ability for that athlete to develop these internal constructs, these internal self-driven constructs from their own passion within the sport. And because I'm doing it for somebody I'm doing it because of something I'm doing it because of this over here. Versus I have passion and a drive to Excel through my athletic skills and abilities. There's so much knowledge and wisdom that comes from the development of an athlete. And we lose sight of really what the purpose of being in sport is to begin with. And so let me ask you a question in reference to the story you were talking about with the with the child that you were coaching, he was coming, transitioning, or using some of what he had in ballet. And now using that in swimming and he began to develop into a faster swimmer. So what then are coaches to do? So if you get to the, you get to that. That tension of, I wanted to develop this athlete to develop the athlete. I could think of a lot. I can think of an argument that a coach may say, I'm going to develop this athlete and to do that. I need for them to trust me. I need for them to to do what I say, how I say it. So how do we Walk that line. So to speak where we don't force the athlete to give up their inner intuition, what's alignment with the inner athlete, but yet, and still the coach is pulling them. So to speak, to follow their system, follow their way of doing things. How do we walk that line? And that's an excellent question. And that we're so the athlete, so that's where the coach develop skills to support the athlete, to be able to have the passion driven from them. So they would want to show up for themselves. And in your cause what the coach is doing is they're taking away and making it their side, which is do what I say and you'll perform because the reality is that I showed up for practice. Cause I had to like, why didn't you even, but I was such a talented swimmer. I Le like, now that I like train I actually love training. I actually love to, to, to this idea of performance. Like I get gold times before I do my workout and I want to do them because it it builds my own drive my own self-esteem and my own like sense of self. But when the coach is saying do it this way or it's not okay, what you've lost is the ability to want empower the athlete. Cause right now you're, that's the control construct that you're talking about which is, and it sets that it sets the athlete up to not have a voice to not be able to be their creative, because it's really a creative adventure sport. Like you've lost it and you've become more robotic to the system and you're spending this time shutting down and you're wanting to please. Your parents, you want to please the coach and then if you're getting results from this dynamic, then it's reinforcing a structure that's going to end up being harmful later on. Whether that later on is the next season, the next event, it, the, whether that's going to be into injury, starting to develop in the athlete, like things will start to develop. If it's not. In the true empowerment place that, that athlete's been driven from. And okay. Go ahead. So what you're making such great points that I want to see if we could try to make it Really tangible, real for the listener. So let's use you as a case study. Let's go back. We had talked about a prior in a prior episode about that incident with you and your coach who was Fred and the time that you were in the pool, the lights were out and that just plain, it sounded just like pure stress, pure torture in that moment. So let's. Take that situation. And now the situation, the story that you're telling us about when you now were in the shoes of the coach and you realized what this child, what the athlete was giving to you, the power. How can we use that as a case study to show a coach, to show parents the the D the distinctions in those two situations? What have, what could have been done with you as the athlete and Fred versus what you did? What were the distinctions? Was it that? So for example, was it that Fred. Was having you do these drills, didn't read, you didn't understand that lights out in a gym, along with a coach could have been a frightening situation. Was that a distinguishing character, versus when you now later on where the coach you're able to read the situation you were under able to understand what should coaches look for using that case study your two examples. In that example, first of all, what I got, let me just tell you as an athlete, what I got out of that situation, what I got was I'm the only person on that team and therefore I'm special. So that's my like, Oh, that's what I want to be. So that fed this part of me. That's not, that was going to create this false sense of the athlete. And then from a coach's perspective, right? So first of all, it's a failure. That was a failure on my parents to recognize and continue. Like I had to take the stronger position in that situation to say, I'm not like I'm not doing it, which then also created this characteristic of myself, of. Having a willful personality and then what that changed was now the coach had an excuse to say that this athlete, like now I became the problem, right? The problem in the sense that this athlete's not controllable, they're not, which we never wanted to begin with. And then we were going to talk about later in the thing, where did this coach, where, how do we just get coaches that can make decisions that aren't within the athletic development of, and for the best interest of athletes? So we have this sort of freedom and I want, I don't want to limit. The, because there's a lot of creativity in coaching, but then there's also like, where's the inspiration. Where's the empowerment. Where's the. Wait a minute that we have this break. How can I train this kid? I see that this kid needs like this extra training and I don't want to lose that. Let's focus on back and that's where I think the coach should have gone. As we have this week off, what can we do? Let's be more creative. And in today's training, there's a lot more. Outside of the sport feeding support within so can you say so the pool's closed. So like right now, people are having to be creative about how to train with all the limitations and things that are shut down to continue this passion. So a lot of that is what you're finding is that. Some athletes are not doing anything. Some are like being creative and that they're actually from a coaching perspective, they're learning that they actually can do this on their own because that's one of the things that's happening from as an athlete is I, the information I took in was I need you to develop me. And if you're not developing me, I won't be an in, in my dreams will be compromised. So there's this fear in lie in the system that we first want to take out. And so a lot of things can change on the athlete in the parent dynamic to change a lot of what's going to happen in sport, but from a coaching perspective, we need more structure as far as. What coaches are interacting with what athletes at what age? Because you're getting a lot of young kids that they, finished, their career, whether it be college or high school, and now they're coaching. And some of them are perfect for that. And but it, when it gets into like the higher levels and the dynamics, if coaches don't understand their behavior, and if they don't change their behavior, if they don't change where you, where the athlete needs to be able to accept the results for what they put in, what they get out. And versus this coach forcing you and this, and there's this idea that this is a reflection on the coach, but if you have athletes who are not performing, let them not perform it. Cause then it, because you want it to be driven from their place. You could talk to the athlete and because one of the things is athletes. Don't talk. There, you have this idea that this power dynamic and in the power dynamic, there's this idea that like the coach has two votes and you have one, you G you know what I mean? So it's not equal structure. And so when I want to work with coaches and I want them to re to take away this idea of. You're a direct like that. The outcome of your athletes is a direct reflection on you as a coach, because you're looking at your next job, your next opportunity, like your own career development and your own career growth. And we and I think a lot of this has to do with change the change, the outcome of what success is for your athletes. That's point. That really is a powerful point. And I think that ties into what you were saying before about coaches being attempted, or there's the current system where coaches lead with the accolades, where they begin to identify with the athlete. Also what you mentioned about, athletes, don't talk. That it, it seems to me and how you have to really investigate the parent dynamic, how that bleeds into or plays into the coach athlete dynamic. That really is a powerful statement. And I think that it shows very nicely, the two situations, the first situation with you and. Fred when you were the athlete. And then again, when you were coaching later in life, this this young boy and how that really drives home, the point that, to me, it seems like developing an athlete is not developing raw. Talent and skill it's really understanding child development and brain development. And what you just said about sometimes let the athlete not perform. That may be one of the hard I can only assume that's got to be a hard thing as a coach. Let the athlete not before, but let's change. There's so much that we have to cover. We touched a little bit on and I know that it was woven into the whole concept of empowerment versus control. You had started to say that some apps, some individuals come into the career of coaching young at a high school or college. Can you talk a little bit about that? A new coach, new to the profession? What. You've seen happen whether there's a need for, and what safer athletes is doing as far as making sure coaches are trained in the way that a young athlete may think what say for athletes is doing as far as certification and just really making sure that we're setting coaches up to do the best job that they can. So what, what I've seen and I've worked as an expert on on quite a few legal cases. And a lot of the dynamic is a former athlete in that sport in their late twenties, early thirties, some are mid thirties and they've never left the. They're teenage in there, the highs of their sport, like they didn't. And so they moved into coaching and didn't didn't have closure with their own athletic career. And we talked about that within the parent child dynamic, but they're, they can have closure and then there's this. The things that we don't talk about, which is the, what happens with teenagers and sport. There's a big dynamic and in that, and we can probably spend a whole episode talking, just about understanding. The constructs that happen, which also bleed into what happens with your coach. And then there's the development of the feelings from an athletic side of standpoint that your feelings for your sport then become part of your feelings for your coach, right? So the same passion that you have as an athlete, leads into this person who's developing you and giving you. The field, good dreams that you desire for yourself. And then from there it develops into it there's a transference that now all of a sudden becomes my passion for my sport as also my passion for my coach. Now, I had lived a very different. Construct within this, where I was, had to deal with sexual harassment in this power and control dynamic for throughout the course of my career. So there's a different, there's different dynamics. But when we see this sort of you like this manipulation and walking right into the hands of a coach, who's certainly on a sexual abusive side of things, different dynamic. When we're talking emotional abuse and verbal abuse. Verbal abuse is very clear and physical abuse is very clear, but there's something so insidious about emotional abuse as well. And but as far as like people become blind so you're going to become blind to this dynamic. That's been set up because, you have the development of the child. You think that they're being developed? When the whole and the parents. Or at that stage, cause it's usually somewhere between it's when you can, when the child is committed to the sport is when they start to become vulnerable. And I say that a lot. I just and then from that point is also when the child leaves sorted the parental and it's becoming them, the moms that are their own personality, their own selves and making their own decisions. So you've got like the tsunami of storms and then you have the coach who's in this place. Who's trying to move their career to that next level with these talented athletes. So you have this construct, that's all in this dynamic and there's this youth that these were the, where they can identify because the coach is in this age range. That's. Not their parents' age and it's not their age. And so they have this connection back to their culture, if you will, they're they're on the same technology language they're on, like they're talking the same language that their parents are clueless about. And so all this sets up this dynamic. For a 14 to 18 kind of age group seven, 15 to 17 is that really vulnerable spot for the young person to feel like they're making decisions that are truthful and connecting to their passion, which really it's the passion of their sport. And it's not the passion for the coach. And that's where we get lost. And identifying what's what, and so coaches, if they don't have this education and awareness about knowing what their like some are just purposeful, some are just straight up purposeful coaching because they see weakness in an athlete and they see how they are worshiping this coach. And they just take and they just can't get enough of the worship and, and then and then others and it, and like the dance begins with that. And once you're in the dance, if you don't know about it, then you're going to stay in it. And think that you're, that the athlete is making these choices and that's where they need to understand that these aren't driven from you. Let me just, let me stop you right there, because that is something that I know a listener in. When you say worship and that dance. And I know that it's something probably that appearance will instinctly know, but let's assume for a second that we have a scenario where a parent, maybe they're not fully aligned. With there you're caught in the whirlwind of, I have a talented athlete. What should I do? I see something, I feel something wrong. What does that worship look like? Give us an example. Even you can, from your own experience when there's that, that worship in that dance that parents get caught up in what are examples of, what does that look like? The, I don't know that there's a generic, what does it look like? My dance was in self-destruction and injuries. And so I wanted, so I, cause I couldn't speak and just say no, no athletes speaks in whose specialty is being in the middle of being abused. No one says. I'm being abused. We helped me. That's just not something that happens. And many parents I've even been in situations. The parents still didn't even believe the child. And if you read my book, you'll know that was my experience as well. So then you have to learn how to in the U S you create a dance with a behavior that you want, people did decode for you. Yeah. And so my behavior was gaining weight, shoulder injuries very behavior like very moody and justified for being an entitled. Oh, she's just tired from a hard workout. Like it was always, there was always like an excuse for the behavior and it made sense. Like it was like justifiable she's had a hard week. Oh, she's tapering. Oh, she's this there was always something that was ignored in order to like, we just got to develop this kid. There's a goal. There's the Olympics. There's, you're winning all these records. It was always something. And so when I performed. It negated any aspect or any idea that there would be any bad behavior coming from the coach. And so we also have this part of the dances is understanding that, it just shows you how talented I was to be able to still perform at this level and be in the intensity of the dance that I was in. That we have this idea that performance equals inner peace for some reason. And they're not, there's no connection to the two. And that's the like, but you can have it when it's in integrity, when you're in athletic integrity, when the coach is in integrity, because really the real issue is that the coaches are lying. They're hiding, they're lying, they're manipulating. And to all not be truthful about what their true intentions are. And so when you have these coaches who are like they're there. When you see in my situation, there was 33 women that came forward that were in trial that had been sexually abused, from, which is still a lot from one coach. Larry Nassar, you have hundreds of people and that 33 is a lie. Yeah. But from a coach in a sexually abusive coach and even. And and when I started say for athletes and started to speak up, I think the hardest thing for me was, and because I did a lot of interviews with the BBC, they asked me to come on a lot regularly on there when they have issues and they've addressed these issues, but it all came from my coach, but I've had several of the women who are victims of my couch that have come to me to ask for support. It was probably the hardest thing. That I have had to do is support the very people who were being evicted by the same monster, and one of the things that I had a conversation with one of the women, she was a number. She was the second. She was just like called the second time in the case. And she's I have the hardest time recovering from this because even in court, he denied that it wasn't ended. That these, that the athletes he basically was saying that they willingly were in an, in a relationship with him. Sure. And so you have this, which is that's a lie. And then you have the other side of it that saying, no, I was manipulated, I'm in a dance with you. And I couldn't get it. I couldn't remove myself from it. My parents couldn't see it, my teammates, they saw it, but they didn't have a response to it. They just didn't want to be in the dance. And it's almost you're in it. Therefore I'm not. Involved. So now you've created this other dynamic with your teammates and we can get into a whole separate conversation around that. What happens and then you have to the onus is on the athlete. Who's who spent their whole time shutting down voices to perform, and they go so deep inside of you, you lose your sense of self and then. And then at the same time you have this charismatic because we have to, the personality of a coach that we haven't talked about is the charisma. And so when in what I find is because, I'm a very direct person. And people talk to me though, I know you're direct, cause I'm very clear you know what you're getting with me despite the fact that I'm actually also very charismatic, but what I find with with that there's this feel good? From somebody who's charismatic. And so coaches and athletes, they feel good because it's not It's not with anger. It's not like there's something it's manipulation and it's narcissistic and, but there's the you're keeping. And so what the dance, like you're keeping that dream and alive, right? So I have a dream to be this. And and externally everybody who's witnessing this relationship. With a very calm coach. Who's not reacting. Who's instilling in my situation, instilled a reaction that made it look like. I was a troublemaker. I was uncontrollable. I was too immature, like my character was fascinated. So so for me, I'm like backed into a corner and there's something that I, talked about. People say, Oh, you're so defensive, which I think is the, when someone says that to you, it's wait a minute. And it took me a while to figured that, how to unwind from that statement. And I think many athletes get stuck here is this fear of being labeled. So now you've called me something. So now I need to prove that I'm not that because any athlete is all about proving, like some dynamic that they that's not them. So you, so now you're just not in yourself. You're just not in, in your truth. Now I'm trying to perform because that's what I do as a human. I've been trans since the age of three to respond to somebody else to give me to develop my dream, to develop my goals, to develop like myself as a person. There's this construct that's also told me I can't do it on my own. Wow. Wow. What, you brought up so many great points, what I've seen and what I think that. It will be really helpful to the listeners, this dance that we're talking about, that exact dance, and you really defined what it looks like. And you could just fill in the blanks for the athlete or the different sport. Be it gymnastics, be it on skating even ballet, what I've seen. Is when you have it's that dance that we're talking about, that lawyers like myself, we have to take apart to try to show a judge or to try to show a jury that. The athlete did not want to be in that dance. The parent didn't want to be in that dance. It's so insidious and it's really, it can be hard. And this is why I'm glad we're having this conversation. It can be hard for a lay person to understand why didn't they just say something? Why did they just leave? Or what I see a lot of times is blame going to the parent or the parents should have known what was going on. It's you need that. You usually the first. Reflexive response. This makes no sense, why this continued to happen. They just don't understand it's an, or they like to say, and I hear a lot. The parent and the athlete, they were just in it for the money. They got to a point where it was only about the money and they were trying it. And I see that this dance it's so easy to twist it. And I guess the best way to call it is it's a fault. Your traditional gas lighting. They're so easy to change this dance. So to speak. If we use that analogy and to make it seem that it was really the athlete and the parent that were really controlling the debt. So I'm glad that you brought that out because I see that by the time a case comes to me, that is what I am trying to deconstruct peel back, take apart and say, no, the. What was really going on in this dance is this imbalancement of power, this control. So thank you for talking about that and sharing that aspect of it. Do you want to talk, do you want to go in now and talk a little bit about if we can, what parents could look for in characteristics? Of a good coach versus bad coaching. What you saw in your experience. I know that. To even get to this. Parents are going to have to that we talked about in the last episode, they're going to have to become aligned with themselves, have integrity with themselves, but let's save it. Now we have a child who's advancing in their career and the parent is now they're doing an awaken and conscious search looking for a coach to. Train that athlete take them to the next level. What are some characteristics in your situation? What are some characteristics that parents should look for? First of all one of the things that I talked to when we'll continue to educate young athletes on is speak up. And and I say, if it feels wrong, it is wrong. I just keep it that simple with athletes. And so when it say I was having a conversation, we were talking about this dynamic and she's her kid came home. One day and said, I don't, I can't coach, I can't go to practice with this coach anymore. And it was super convenient. They had a carpool set up, it was close by all the conveniences were lined up for, with his pals and his buddies, but he wanted to continue on the sport, but he just was like, no, this coach doesn't work for me. She had to drive an hour. And drive an hour away. The practice was an hour and a half. It was like 45 minutes. Now wait till the next practice. There was no time to go and drop the kid off and then had to figure out how to rearrange the work schedule. There was a lot of inconveniences yeah. To make that decision, but to support her son in this doesn't feel right to me right there. Wasn't like, and I think parents spent too much time on. Needing their own. Like they don't want to, Oh, this is inconvenient. I have a carpool setup. So there's all these Because excuse us, like really? What did he do? Ah, no. And then they blame their kid, right? Oh, it was just a bad workout. So there's all this excuse making justification. And I, that's where I feel the parents out of integrity with themselves when they have Oh, I don't want to rearrange the time. I don't like all these things. Maybe you should quit. I don't want to invest in that. Okay. Oh, to say there's nothing tangible. And and that's where I feel like, as I think young kids and they know more what's going on, but they don't have the communication and the articulation and they just don't, it hasn't been developed. And and so for me, it's like the little things you need to like really listen to them and evaluate, and maybe explore that. And it's just like an even, it's like when you're like coach would touch you and you're like, it feels creepy. You don't even like, and there's just this, something, this alarm bell that goes off. And as an adult, we. We've been Nesta sized or we've, we're, we've been, desensitized from these experiences. And young children. Haven't right. And and that's the part where I feel like, listened to listen to your kid and make decisions. And so when we get to this high level, There's several things that go on. And I think we've seen it in the Maggie Haney case. Which where that situation being this an emotionally abusive situation that some parents find that completely acceptable, that is it's like the sacrifice. Between Oh, that's what greatness means or that's what we have to do in order to Excel. And they S they see it as hardening, the, suck it up, all that stuff. When I know for me I know how to suck it up, and I know how to like, overcome things, but I can do it with grace. And I can do it. Like when I train now, it's, I don't have, there's no anger. There's no like grunting. There's none of that. It's all about showing in developing this strength and wisdom that I have within me. And, and so we lose so when the parents that's an out of integrity parent in that situation and the athlete then will develop. They can't speak up. They get a REIT there they're redefining what's acceptable abuse. So this is now where this dance comes in. And so what the athletes situation has been pressured and it's all with, because there's no constructs because there's no clear and defining line within the sports environment and. When you stack up the excuses and it's at this level and that's where then the danger comes in, let me ask you this because you're touching on a point that even I, so I'm going to come to, I'm going to get in the in the therapeutic, your chair here, because I have to ask you even from a personal sense, you, what you just said, allow the child. A child that's saying, for whatever reason, they're misgiving about the coach. And the response may be, suck it up, push through it, but you're saying no, allow the child to do all those things to overcome, quote unquote, suck it up, but allow them to do it in grace with grace. But how do we as parents? How does a parent really speak to that? And maybe I'm going to throw it out there. Maybe it's fear, maybe you're telling, is it, how does a parent do that? Let me form the question. Okay. If you're saying this child is too young. They may give up when they have this great talent. We, we just have to get over this hump. We just have to push them through throwing out some of the excuses. And the question is, how do you, if you're feeling these things as a parent, if you're having these thoughts, they just need to learn the desk discipline they're young. They don't know what they're gonna give up. How do we step back and let them push through with grace? What is, how do we do that? Okay. And as you can criticize me for not having any kids, but I can certainly tell you from my own experience, the excuses that the athlete is like, there's, I think as a parent and as a coach, it's like understanding. Are you tired? Are you overworked? Because everybody trains differently. And I swam with this person, world record holder, multiple, gold medals. And she was like hardly ever training. And it was actually a resentment for the other people. But she performed and it was always like she knew better what she needed. She had a more equal relationship with the coach, but now we're talking athlete versus 12, 13, 14, because there's the formation of. Leading your athlete to leading your child and helping them develop their own internal strength. And then there's cause they want to be driven with their own purpose. You want them to be able to go? I want to go to soccer today because I love it. And I still love it. And it's if you're struggling, what are you struggling about? We stop. We S we think that the struggle is it could be a teammate. It could be getting bullied. It could be like, there's so many things that, that it could be, and it's not let's learn what those are. Right and respond to that. But for example, I had a situation, someone called me up in their kid was in a soccer program. And the parents the like often what you hear in these team sports are my kids not playing. And so they're like, they're the best on the team or they're, like they're one of the best on the team and they're not getting time on the field. And, and so then the kid wants to quit. That's a very typical dynamic that changes. And so then you're like no. It's let's change. And then you start teaching the athlete to start pleasing the coach so you can get more playing time. Then that dynamic starts to, that's another dance that starts to come in. And because it's you have passion, you want to do it. But in this particular case, what happened was, is that one of the athletes on the team, the mother was actually in a relationship with the coach. And so in the, in that particular child was not that talented, but she was getting more time because of the dynamic that has now been hidden in is a lie to the team. It's a lie to the structure, and and then this athlete's suffering, right? So in, in that particular case, sometimes we have to make hard decisions. And you're like, nah, I want to support my kid and my kid's passion. Okay. I'm going to have to drive now 45 minutes away to get to the next program. And it's super inconvenient. But instead we stay and we support these environments, partly because you don't know what's going on you have to figure it out. And then the kid, and so this coach also was emotionally abusive to the team, and the kid that was getting the extra playing time and a collection of others were like, no, he's not emotionally abusive. He's just a hard coach. So there was all this, like the vision of reality. That was starting to happen in order to protect the lie in order to protect the dynamics that, that were trying to be hidden while they're really in plain sight, so that you start believing these lies that are being put in this dynamic. And then it's it just starts to elevate, like what's fact what's fiction. That's why emotional abuse is so hard. When, you don't understand where the core of the lie is like it or of the is that is so true. That's that is exactly. And I can attest to that from a legal standpoint in practicing this year, the core of the lie. It's it can be, to me, it's not a moving target, but sometimes it can be almost like playing three card Monte. When you have a coach that's emotionally abusive, you're trying to find out wait a minute, what is the situation? And it seems to be shifting and moving and it really isn't shifting and moving. And I think that the work you're doing with safer athletes is going to benefit, the legal profession because it's once safer athletes. Is adopted by more and more clubs. And that becomes the standard we will have. We will know the core of the lie and there won't be any more of this gas lighting, especially in the area of emotional abuse. I think emotional abuse is all, is it can be that moving target or. Perpetrators and their supporters of perpetrators want it to be a moving target because you try to say things like I hear in my line of work. I hear such things as just what you were saying before. It depends on the situation. Sometimes some kids are tough, some kids are not so tough. Some kids are sensitive. And I think that you had said this in another episode that we had. A conversation where you said that it's also safer, athletes will also train to see that it's abuse when. One child is being bullied or there's favoritism on a team and a team sport that's also abuse. So watch that going on. So you know that it's, it can be so hard to try to define but there is true. Then there is a quarter of the why, what about Katherine? Let's I want to hear your thoughts on and your experience in when coaches. Of how coaches should deal with the issue of coaching based on results versus results, driven coaching versus developing an athlete. What is that concept about? And can you speak to us about that? So many so from a high level, many of the coaches have like contractual obligations to perform their athletes. Okay. And so whether it be collegiate, I actually had a situation collegiately and an emotional abuse situation. And that the contract in itself set it up for just to be abusive just to and and in, in the coach justification, Was, this is about performance. This is about results. These kids are on scholarship and really, it becomes like their ownership. Like they own them. Versus once again, owning that falls into the control side versus the empowerment and be driven by the human that comes out of it. And not the athlete that comes out of it. And so that often what we find in the dynamics as they get developed through the system, even from a young child, you become like the first level is you become the athlete. And so that changes that. Dynamic within both yourself and with the athlete and then you're in pursuit of something. And then that changes like that, the dynamic. And then there's the consistently from the coaches perspective is there need for whatever professional development that they're in pursuit of that they. Have this blanket excuse and really the problem is that we keep buying into these excuse. It's just cause we've heard them, we've heard them. And we've said and I speak in this collective way cause that's really, unless we collectively all change, this is the system will stay like this. And that's what Y say for athletes is so important to get into your sports program because we're going to rearchitect how you participate in sport and we're going to develop. Like the coaches will develop the athletes and parents and teams to move you in a direction that, I use the term safe and positive environment, but really I'm moving you in a direction to be driven with integrity. All of, whether in the coach, they need to be clear. And I think even with parents to say this program is about right. Producing athletes. So then you as a parent have to be in a situation and say, do I want to sacrifice my child just for their athletic career? Or do I want to have a whole rounded athlete? And some people, a lot of people will. They want a whole person, they don't just want it athlete. And I think we struggle in collegiately. There's a big push to say like many athletes show up in college and they're there to be an athlete. There's still, I was there to be an athlete and then secondary, I was there to be a student, but it was really cause it was people don't want to hear that. I mean it, and I don't think that my university was any different. And although we had an excellent team and our team dynamic is actually very strong today. With a coach that was abusive, like in his. He was demanding versus abusive. And I also think we need to understand the difference between demanding and abusive, and so I will correct that in the sense that his workouts were hard, but he also believed in you to be able to give you those workouts. And that's the part where it's I think when you understanding a coach in that dynamic is we believe in the athlete versus forcing the athlete. And there's a big difference between those two approaches. Okay. How does how do we, how do you distinguish, does a parent do that distinction or is it the, are you, does an athlete do it? So a demanding coach versus an a versus an abusive coach who picks that? Why don't I ask it this way? How can a parent, what are some clues from your experience that a parent can say? No, I think that this is more of just a demanding workout or a demanding coach versus this is an abusive coach. And I guess this goes back to what we were talking about. Good versus bad coaching. What are some indicators from your experience? First one, I, when I talk about athlete integrity what I mean by that is coach gives me a workout. I'm actually tired and I really don't have the mental capacity to perform today. And then I'm going to get, now I've put the coach in a position where cause I haven't spoken. And I've now I'm underperforming and I'm just doing it because. Like I, cause I'm tired. But no one knows I'm tired. So now the coach is he's seen me, see, my stroke is seen my energy. So I'm going to push this kid cause I know that they can perform. So now I'm now saying, Oh, that's abusive. But the reality was is that I walked into that situation and I didn't say anything. I didn't say where I was at. I didn't, there was no common, like it's not about being accommodated, but it's about being able to articulate. And and it's also knowing the difference between. And like when you're injured and when you have muscle fatigue. And so all this stuff, I don't think an athlete is like, they're not aware enough of their own like athletic experience because we don't encourage them to be aware enough. And is that something Safe4Athletes we'll address teaching? Because that sounds like you're not going to just jump in now at the collegiate level and be able to speak up for yourself as an athlete. That sounds like something that you would have been that muscle also, that you would have been developing, starting early in your career. Is that something that say for athletes we'll try to set up, so children are able to then do that and let the coach know. Oh, yeah. W we're gonna have like webinars, seminars, like coaching with the, like we'll do private coaching. We'll do all of that. As athletes to help them develop themselves as an athlete and develop that voice. Cause there's, at some point, like you're told you don't have a say and it's no, let me get, let me show you how to have a say like no one teaches you like how to do that. So we're going to have lots of programming around that. Yeah. As can be part of the collective by, adopting safer athletes and it being, part of your sports experience. And then we'll have all these other programs for you to join us and continue to develop that part of yourself. Because we, there is no, like you show up to college, you're so lost yourself lost. And and and so it's like, You're going to be a strong athletes. You can make all the right decisions all the way up until you get to college. And you're getting, you're going to be truthful with yourself because the reality is if I'm how many times it was, I was just like too tired to swim that day. And then it's now the coach's fault. So I'm not saying all coaches need to take on this responsibility. And that's when I say, when you coach to the line, you need to know. That once you've crossed that over, you're taking away from that athlete failing itself. It failure, at least for me does not feel good, and then you want to hide in shame and all the other stuff that goes with that, but you have to allow and and then at the same time, we'll instill the athlete to have that voice that's been missing to be able to be truthful and just say, Hey coach, I just didn't have it in me today. There's truth in that. And so then now the coaches and in this place of okay, so if you don't like any, if you don't have it in you like every day maybe something's wrong, right? And so then you have that more adaptable and understanding and there's passion in. And that's where I think the belief piece comes in. Like when you start believing in the coach, because the athlete also believes in you, that sounds like a change in the dance. Totally that back and forth and athlete who has who's feel empowered, not controlled. Where you have a coach who's coaching to the line, and then they now can have a dance in a situation where you are not feeling yourself today. You can have that discussion. Sounds like what we have to not need to want to what we have to work to. If we don't, I'm going to continue to stay in this line of work, where I'm representing, athletes that are infused. And, I don't want that, I can find another area. I can brush up on another line of work and because I don't want to see this continue. I don't want to see, we talked about last week with CRR McCormick and the sex scandal and soccer, that just is just coming out, just become it coming out to us publicly. Of course, the women's soccer players in Canada, they were dealing with this for the past 20 years. It's, how many more instances are we going to continue in this dance that we're talking about and not redefine? I think we've talked about, the only thing that we didn't talk about and we've touched on it throughout our conversation was the last two areas bringing up the Oh, I don't know. Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Bringing up the coaches, some of the coaches that were in your life, if you want to talk about that, if you want to tease out for the listeners, how that, how the coaches impacted your life, at the time they were your coaches and then how it carried over. If you want to talk about that. And then if you want to close it off by talking about addressing. Parents. And you did it a little bit. What if your child comes to you? I want to quit. I'm not doing this anymore. I'm walking away. This is too much. My coach is fill in the blank. If you want to talk about those last two areas and then whatever else that you feel is important for our listeners. So one of the co one of my favorite coaches I don't know what a little bit about him, but I really didn't spend that much time saying he was my favorite coach who tactically was one of my coaches and anyone. His name was Keith Bewley and I, he was so calm. He was just such a calm coach and I, and this goes, but he was also, he gave a super hard workout. And and I think when I said, when I was training that, training that young boy is that I was like, calm for him. And it was just like, Hey, this is what we're going to do. And so then it was like, and when they had an easy workout, by the way, they complained. You're coaching, when they're like, Oh, you weren't here that day. The practice was too easy though. Don't leave us. You're doing something right, with when that happens, and and that was like, if he would just sit there and he didn't take my results personally. And he had seven people, on the Olympic team. And what was so sad about the relationship with Keith is that and one of the, one of the women I swam with, she got a silver and a bronze in the Olympics. We, it was a solid, solid elite group that I swam with in England and he was a swimmer himself. And I think he'd want to go with Madeline in the Commonwealth games. And he was banned as a coach. Because he had cheated on his expense report and he hitchhiked instead of taking the train. And so he made out and this was so early on in his career. And he probably made like less than a hundred dollars. It was probably like 60 bucks, was this meal. And he was banned for life. And he was banned for ban for life, for the irony of it versus emotional sexual abuse and, getting a slap on the wrist. Okay. All right. Continue. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. In here and here you have this coach, who's so he couldn't. So in a lot of, I'm sure you read, like in my story of like in 84, when he had seven people on the team, I was now back in and put in a sign back into my abuser, by the way was reported. The team captains reported him to the swimming association and they didn't take they didn't take that is let's explore that. Let's do that. Let's, go in that direction. So when you know, like that's in the system, when you see that I know what a good coach is. Like I know. And, but I also know there would be days that like, like all of us where we just are like having a moat, like we're off emotionally and we respond. And that's still okay because we have there's humanity in, but I also think there's taking accountability to be like, I let an outside issue affect me and I brought it in and really communicate that back to your athletes and create your vanity with it. Cause you know, then you can have forgiveness and trust in because we're no one's asking you to not be you, but then there's also understanding, spend the time to figure out how that developed within you. And so then from. Like taking this pathway. What I can tell you is that the ability to change the dynamics and the construct is there. And it's a collective experience that all of us can contribute to. And so that's like what I want to empower. Yeah. And it's so as a parent, part of it is making a hard decision. Sometimes you have to make a hard decision when you don't have all of the information. But you trust your kid that you've developed this communicative relationship with, to say that they wouldn't say that to me, unless there was something there. But if your kid's just being lazy and they don't want to do it. The reality is that you're, then that sport may not be the right sport for them, and that's important. And I'm a true believer. There's 47 different sports in the Olympic movement. And, and we, don't all, so many people show up to school. Cause everybody needs to learn how to swim and then you're there and you stay there. And, but they hate it because it's really not their sport but you needed to learn how to swim. And so I think there's a lot more like young athletes that are just like out of integrity because the parents are making them swim. I can certainly speak to my siblings. They hated it because I mean their sport, we, it was just easier for all of us to go. But that wasn't, but that's the part of that's where you got to make some hard decisions, easier. That's what it is. That's what it is. Katherine, you tell me, I think that this wraps it up. Was there anything else that you wanted to make sure that you put out there for others to know about? I think we've covered it. We talked about. Coaching to the line. We talked about empowerment versus control. We talked about some of the characteristics that parents can watch for and good coaching and bad coaching and what the core and the dance and how we can break out of those ones through the programming, that safer athletes. Is going to present and then it also is breaking out of that dance is for the athlete to have a voice. How do you get that voice? What I took from this is that voice it has to be developed. As soon as you see the child is talented and it should be developed athlete, non-athlete just period in every living human being. Because if you don't have that voice, you won't speak up and you'll have others controlling your dance and end up dancing all over you. And that is the, that's the symbolic, I guess what we're talking about for abuse. And that's how I see abuse happening and unfold. I don't know. Is there anything else that you thought. wanted to share, I think we had a wonderful conversation today and and I would just say to parents and coaches and. And athletes and that you're listening. One keep checking back. Both Katherine started at com and and as well as Safe4Athletes and I, myself have speaking engagements, so come join us and, come learn about it this more, or, or sign up on the newsletter on both of those sites to learn more about seminars and everything else then. Of course continue to support, say for athletes and kids, not in a program for say for athletes in choir we will have a send your representative over to stay for athletes and have a 15 minute call with us and learn how to come on board because we want to help you. And we want every team to be a safe athletes team so we can help you change the dynamics, stop the dance and ride off into a. Athletic future of your dreams. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much, Katherine. This was great. Thank you. Okay.