Integrity in Sport Series - Episode 4

This episode is brought to you in partnership with

Judie Saunders -  https://askllp.com/attorneys/judie-a-saunders

Katherine Starr - www.katherinestarr.com

Transcript

0:42

Hello. So and so excited again for another conversation with Katherine Starr and I'm Judy Saunders, and today is episode four of a five-part series. What we're going to cover today is an important topic. All of them have been important, but this is one that is an entryway. When you speak about the starting the beginning. Of an abusive relationship with a coach. I think it overlaps and it really serves as the root cause and the foundation. So we're going to talk about the grooming side, the dynamic, that, and how that dynamic fits into the athlete experience. Katherine, I want to start with. A story that I'm familiar with, our listeners may not be that may highlight this whole dynamic of grooming. And I'm, I'll just begin the story and then you complete it. But I'm speaking in particular about the story with your coach, Paul, the Paul, who was Sexually abusive to you and his appearing at a dinner that you were having with your family. Believe it was your mom and dad. I'm not sure of the, who was at the dinner and the acts that he did there. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah. So let's let me back up. So this is six, seven years later from when. That I've been in this sexually abusive dynamic it's sexual abuse to sexual harassment, to just non-stop harassment throughout my whole athletic career. And backing up in that story. So my, just to give some background to my, where my dynamic and the relationship was with Paul is that from when the sexual abuse happens, it's moved into a relationship of If I'm not having sex with you, I'm not on the, and I'm not on the, world championship team. I'm not on the Commonwealth games team. So there was a quid pro quo world that I didn't, that I suffered through. And and I certainly write, write about that in my book and. So when we got to the phase of my parents, I was exhausted. I was just internally exhausted with this this fight, this, and it's an internal fight with myself and where I felt like I was battling an army with just me. It's and so like the people around me, like my peers and like in a chess game where all I have left is one pawn to protect, to protect that before I'm in checkmate. And that's kinda how, like it felt with, so when I'm with my parents there. They're focusing. All his focus was is about me being an Olympian and about, the opportunity and that pursuit and that goal and that accomplishment and, and I look back and I'm not blaming them because I think all parents are groomed. They're groomed in many ways. They're grounds by the system inherently is set up to. The groom. And then on top of that, you have I like the silence that comes with wanting to please and my parents, and especially in the dynamic that I talk about a lot in my book, but my relationship with my dad who I just love so deeply, and all I wanted from him was to. Love me back. And so he, and so that dynamic then that was created was that love was very conditional, was, which was based on, at least this. Period of time in my life, which was based on my success, at least that's the way that it was that I took in that experience and in that dynamic. So when Paul walked up to me at the table that day and he's puts his hands on me, like he always does. And it was just creepy. There was the. Concerned about my character and being defined in a certain way. And you know that cause he'd already character assassinated me. That was a strategy and attack with any, when you're abusing somebody and you're not getting what you want, then you're going to project. The bad behavior onto the other person. And because you're a minor because you're. And in this case I was 20 at the time of the incident. But I was partying and drinking and doing what other athletes were doing and that was an out of. Out of norm and even my parents were okay with that. My father always felt that I needed to, drink to wine. That was like the solution that was, taught in my family. So that wasn't necessarily it. But what was used is any ounce of imperfection that I had demonstrated as an athlete was now I'm vulnerable too. Whatever lies and whatever insidious behavior is like in plain sight, but behind the veil. Because I've been characterized in a certain way, then the shift of attention has been moved off what the coach is doing to, let's make sure that. Certainly I was Annabel at the time is behaving well. And I came from a family that, that respect was a core thread with adults, and you respect your coach, right? So I'm ingrained with. My, so my parents creating these values, which way we want these values, I want, like to be well taught and then as a child or even in a growing adult. You want to break through those values to define them for yourself. So that's like the goal, if you will is certainly with my little rebellious thing, but I was being that way. And I felt like one of the things in the system is an okay. Is people are looking for a straight. Conversation for someone to be able to say they're abused and it's a language and it's a language of experiences and it's a language of actions and it's a language of it's not verbal. And even when I talk about the Larry Nassar situation, where. And Jamie who's, who was Jane DOE when she first filed and then came out. But so she Dominique Marsianno had sent her over to me to talk to me and it was actually about something else. It wasn't even about Larry Nassar. And it was because of my, to understand What she was talking about. It was something else. So then I started digging in this, down this rabbit hole that I know so well, cause I know the language and I know it's just I intuitively know something's going on. And that for me was like, people are somewhat they're blinded. And I think that's the whole idea of grooming, right? It's you're wooed into the situation and you're blinded by what's really happening. Cause there's like this you, when you have your blinders on you're, you don't see, you don't have the peripheral vision. And so sitting there with my parents, the thing is, part of becoming an Olympian it's about, you're trying to be the best in the world, like the best in the world and. There's a ideology about how you become the best in the world in a certain set of characteristics that define you to become the best in the world. And they've somewhat loosened up a little bit, but certainly when I was training and it wasn't true, amateur sport pursuit, that, all of that That character of that. I was, it wasn't just the accomplishment of in sport. It was the character that I was to represent. And so since I wasn't in that space and it was clear that I was, when Paul would touch me, I would talk back. I would tell him to get his hands off me. I would. And it was not, there was nothing gracious about my response. It was very reactionary. And so what was looked at was how so he used that when I wasn't succumbing to his requests in plain sight. And he used that as a way to say that I wasn't coachable, that my character was. I was, that I was juvenile latchkey kid. Anything that you could do and it, and another tactic that coaches often use to sell spread rumors. And so he started spreading rumors around me that weren't even true. Even right after he had sexually abused me, there was a rumor going around about one of the other guys on the team that I was in a relationship with. And I was never in a relationship with this guy. So let me talk to you about that because you are dropping what you are. What you're talking about right now is an actual framework that I know will be helpful to parents who are, and I like the term that you use the groom. I think that we should coin that phrase because it is the groom. It is the art, and it's the science of both a. Plain sight and a behind the scenes. So let me ask you this, cause you, you said so many important things just now. So we were talking about first, if we could put it in context, we were talking about in the context of Paul and how you all are out at dinner and how he does this act in plain sight, the act of touching you and. Between you and Paul, you know that this is a violation, that this is offensive, but he's using this as an opportunity to corroborate the lies and the rumors. Oh my God. Look how she responds. Mom and dad, do you see that? And so that now is a second tactic or second Guidepost in this whole cycle or art of grooming your response. And now he's able, as I'm saying, he's able to corroborate. This mis-characterization of you uncoachable that person. We see that I've seen that pattern in my practice where I have survivors that are part of the retaliation in public. So for example, after the athlete maybe has filed a lawsuit or maybe has disclosed through a safe set the center complaint, you now see the coach start to say this. Child was horrible in this way. They retaliated in the gym in this way. So it sounds like part of this cycle is the character assassination. So let's, can you hone in and define a little bit more when we talk about how your groomed in playing out in the open and how there's a grooming that's blinded or behind the scenes. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So the grooming starts with first of all, I think I've shared other times, I've certainly shared this along the way in the course of my, my speaking on the topic, but. First of all, let's talk about when you're susceptible. So you're susceptible to being abused when you've committed to your sport. So whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, like when you identify and become like, I am a right, like I'm a swimmer, like that's who I am. That's where my talent is. Like when you've identified yourself, that athlete version inside of you, you are now susceptible. And so the grooming then And it's also where the athlete voice starts to diminish which is also part of the grooming. So I'm going to talk about the characteristic of the coach and it's also why I'm not a supporter of going down the positive. Accolations. Approach. So a a coach who sexually abusive is most likely to be very charismatic. And so there's there's a pathway down. The parents feel good. Their kid's going to become the best thing since sliced bread. Their investment into their athletic career is being recognized, not just by them, but by this coach. And so that has looped in the their dreams and desires for their kid. It makes them feel good. They're now on and have shifted their allegiance and other on the legions on the coaches side. So the first part of that grooming cycle is to pull the parents in. As on the coaches team. So now you are in a position where it's. The coach and your parents against you. So you're the stacked against you, and you have someone who's very charismatic and the very positive, right? So they're looking at you and all the accolades, all that, like in your excelling, in your sport, and you're getting the love from your parents. You're getting the love from the coach. You're getting your love from your teammates. You are in like everything that you desired for yourself and everything like your, like how you identify is becoming just richer by the moment as you continue to Excel and you feel good and it's your talent, you're in it. Everything is great. And when someone's charismatic, it is, it feels good. If it doesn't feel good when someone's direct and a little gruff it's just not like I had a coach Jack who was an amazing coach and he was the most like he, he just grunted and there was no like but he, I knew he cared about the outcome of my. Yeah, above my swimming is when I swam with the, with all the I, when I swam with the university of Wisconsin men's team, he was the head coach there and there was no special treatment. There was no inappropriate conversation. It was like, I'm doing this set. And that he had no reason to go back and be like, Oh, I can't do it. I didn't need to like I just knew it was just a simple, yeah, it was just a simple style. But he understood swimming and he understood sets and he understood how to improve and he could see it and drive in that direction. And then there's the person who's given you, selling you where you want to go, and they're selling you down a path. And that path is like beautiful. And then eventually you get down that path and that's where, like it goes from like out into plain sight. Because now your parents see this person as this character that's been like, cause it feels good. It feels good to be around somebody who's charismatic. Okay. So then working on that with that foundation. So you have the Kara charismatic coach That coach is confirming corroborating with the parents. This is it. Your investment you're here. You're in the right person, right place. It take your child to the next level. What then is that line of demarcation where that charismatic coach crosses over to abuse? So I'm going to put two questions and you could talk about that. Crosses over into abuse. Abuse that is both. We see how it's happening on the plain site with the parents crosses over and then the abuse starts to happen behind the scene. So to speak. When do they cross that line and what's going on behind the scenes? So the line gets crossed when the athlete now has your passion is now includes. This coach who's bringing you. Cause like I have it, like my pursuit is to be an Olympic gold medalist. And so now I have this coach, who's my parents love and I'm excelling and I'm getting all the attention. Like for me, when I swam with Paul, I was the only girl in five guys. So there was like, and he, and that's how he set it up. That's how we set up his system. And and so you're isolated, you're alone, but I feel special. And and that's where, like the, and I say isolated and alone, not necessarily alone in physical space, but I'm isolated and alone in accomplishment and in, and I'm now in feeling in this on this pedestal. And and your parents love it and everybody's happy. And then there's that moment when I am just elated, like I will do anything. And it's like all of a sudden I've lost all, like I've turned my will and my care over to my coach. And when I've made that. Turn then the actions of sexual abuse had happened because people need to understand this. Isn't a random attack down a dark alley. This is a process of getting you in the net, and it's slow and it's insidious. And your, all of a sudden you're entrapped in it. And how did I get in trapped? I'd lost my voice. I'm doing things because I've been now trained to do whatever this person asks of me. And and then there's that inside of you? That's like knowing that this is not what you want to do, but it's almost like the claw of control has gone in. And you're just a puppet, responding to whatever at will. This coach wants you to do, Katherine, were you trained to do whatever a coach wanted you to do before you got in that pool? Oh, I was trained, I think, starting at three years old. Like I was trained with. One, you re you like you, you do what were your coach does? And you just get, it gets beaten into you. I was like learned a subservient style. Like I learned to serve. That's like what an athlete, like the way the system is set up is I serve this person. And and it's really like a S a master, this person's my master. And you don't have this. And then there's all of this dynamics and excuses that have been defined by you're a young person. Young people lie and you don't see things clearly. I think children and young adults see things far more clearly than actually then actual adults do. And I'm more clear and they speak very simple. They speak, they've asked the best, most clear questions that, that I think I could ever do on a direct or cross examination. So the point That you're talking about. And we know, and I like for listeners to be able to come away with, a one, two, three, four type of context or structure, but I don't think that it will fit in this discussion of grooming because as I'm listening to you, it seems as if rooming is more of this dark art. This dark art that goes forward, may retreat may come back, may spring forward, and it will it will morph as the situation is needed. So for example, as we were talking about before in the story, you're at the table, he puts his hands on you, right? He will he, the abuser, the perpetrator they'll do their grooming, even out in the open. And then depending on the response of the survivor, they may push forward or pull back in their whole grooming process. So if I, if we, if I can turn the discussion a little bit, we're talking about the characteristics of the coach you're defining for us what a charismatic coach looks like, what parents should be aware of when their child identifies. As a talented athlete and or in their sport. Talk to us a little bit about, of the characteristics of a coach who deals in sexual abuse versus emotional abuse. Do they do, does ed do either in either of those situations and emotional abuse situation or sexual abuse, do we usually start out with a foundation of being charismatic or do you find different characteristics in each of those types of abusive situations? Oh, yeah, no emotionally abusive, isn't it doesn't generally fall into charismatic. Okay. Yeah. So sexually abusive. And that's where it becomes so insidious that people really don't see it because the parents feel good and they often don't even believe their kid. And so then you have that, like I'm saying like the chess pieces moved to the other side and you're alone. There's nothing protecting you and and and then from an emotionally abusive situation, there's this idea that it's a group think. So in the sense that parents will all, you're just kids not tough enough. There's a lot of throwing it out like that, that to define like the, they take the element of Or they take the aspect of needing to be tough. You had needed to take this tough path. And certain things are just going to make you a better athlete. So that's like the myth and the lie in the system. That Lee takes away the accountability and for someone to really see emotional abuse. And so when I get involved in cases and stuff, when I look at emotional abuse, like the I'll look at like the inequality between the athletes, right? So if you're like, just that alone, Creates emotional abuse. Explain that further. What do you give us? Give us a scenario with that one. So if you have let's just talk team sport, right? So if you have soccer. Team. And you have half, half the athletes stayed. This coach is great. And the other half of the athletes say, this coach is abusive. And then you're like, and so then it becomes like this idea of this jury the loudest voice wins to define whether or not that this is an emotional abusive situation. And what people fail to understand is the mere fact. And that's when I say, if they're not having an equal experience, Where they're participating in their sport. And then the, if the athletes, not, if the athletes not empowering themselves and which can be for a multitude of reasons, there are some, look at the responsibility where the responsibility needs to lie. If it's just one person and they don't want to be there and their parents are forcing them to be there. Is the coach being immune an emotionally abusive coach in that situation you really need to look at the whole picture, but when you have a collective of people that have all experienced a certain personality trait, like it's almost like there's multiple personalities that are showing up with certain athletes on the team, then it becomes. You can't individualize it too, or collectively say that this group of athletes within that team is the problem. You have to look at the cow. Is this person coaching and what parameters have they are they allowed to. To use. And what style are they using in order to develop these athletes and, and there's a style, there's, there's a lot of manipulation of emotional, shame, blame embarrassed. Like all those things are tactics are used. As a way to empower or motivate when in fact none of them are motivational tools. But they've been allowed in the system as a way to become cause we have this idea that you need to be tougher. And and how do you in how you can get that out of an athlete with. With just allowing the athlete to, to fail. And if they don't, if they're not self-driven and that's the part where I bring in this athlete within is that if you, and this is where abuse becomes susceptible, and this is where I became like subservient to the world and to all my coaches is that if I'm not. Driven. If it doesn't come from my flame inside of me, then let me experience my own outcome, and if it's, and it's not to, if I don't ever make the Olympics because I wasn't abused getting there, it wasn't really the right accomplishment for me. I think Katherine, wait, I think we have to stop because what you're saying, in my opinion is the bedrock. Of any discussion that we're talking about abusive coaches, it is normalized. It is traditional. It is the, I think it's in any competitive wreck, you will find the concept that you have to push. You have to be tougher. Tough enough. I am transparent. I admit, CR yelling, get my kids downstairs to whatever sport lacrosse, being upset about. They weren't, you all are not showing up. You're not putting in. And then it's followed by, the the reframe with, I'm spending all this money on to take you here. I'm giving my Sunday away. So that's on the parent's side. And then you have the coach who is given using that toughen up monitor motto I think it was captured very nicely in an article. It's common on the internet. It's called toughen up snowflake. But what you were just saying, it has to come from within, it has to be your own flame and to let the athlete fail. So I want to start right there because of that. As a parent is terrifying to hear at any aspect, be it a sport, be at school. But I think even more so I care, I put myself in that category of driven parents driven my personally, what do you mean? How do we do that? What do you mean? Let them fail. Yeah. And I'm going to give you this scenario. I've just written a check for$5,000. I'd given up my entire weekends to drive you all around the state, maybe fly around the country with you. What do you, I. How do we do that? How do we let it come from them and let them fail? How do you do that? You want to empower the athlete, right? And if you don't have this internal flame, all you're doing is propping up. And so as soon as as soon as you take away how you've propped up the athletes, they're going to fall down. Because they haven't learned how to do that. They haven't learned how to have a voice and be able to say and read signs, read people that aren't like serving them for their greatest wellbeing. And it's not just let them fail. There's a whole you want to go through the, you want to understand what's going on. Sure. You find out, like I just spent$5,000 investing in this program and you're like, but the coach, he's been touching me inappropriately or, I've been sensing things that he's be like, I feel that it's not whatever the outcome is, right. Something going on. That's what I mean by letting. Letting it, because you're pushing in a way that doesn't allow the actual issues to rise out. Sure. You're keeping them in because it's you're into I spent the money we're doing this, like all that stuff that's for you. But what you've done is you've silenced the athlete and you've put them in a position to say this isn't my choice. I'm not choosing to be here. I'm doing it because, and I feel guilty and I feel this and I got to, and every kid's going to love their parents through that. They don't want them to be in strain either. And they're going to take that on. So what do I mean by that? It's I want to know if you have if you're falling, if you just wait a minute, they're not motivated. Wait, this is about you. This is about your success. This is about the parent needing this child to be this great thing. And it maybe not be what they're meant to be the great thing in sure. Aspects of this and and that's where it's like. But the one thing that I'm like so passionate about is I want to be able to athletes to one, have a voice. And to light that flame themselves because we walk away in life being propped up where we were we're lazy on the inside. We don't become self-driven. Everything becomes an external need or desire, whether it's just praise as opposed to my internal, where it's like, Oh, that like I want to accomplish that more for myself. And I don't need somebody to where I'm constantly looking, whether it cause again, an adult's like food, it's alcohol, it's drugs, it's shopping, like all these things that you end up moving into as an adult, because you didn't have the internal drive, you didn't develop that part. And that's where you get it in sport. That's what sport does for you. Yeah. And that's why, when we talked about the parents stuff, it's like they're blinded driven with their world and they just want their kid to be driven. I want your kid to be driven too, but let me help you drive that kid into their successes. So it's driven from them. Driven from within. I got it. So take, so go to take us back, touch on this last point, before we move on. Does this fall within your in your professional opinion as to personal and personal opinion as to an abusive coach characterize this characteristic of an abusive coach? I give you the scenario or the hypothetical where there is there's two athletes and using the performance. Of one athlete against the other, is that a legitimate way to motivate? So for example Bob, look at Scott, how come you can't perform? Why aren't you are, is that type of dialogue between coach. And athletes is that abuse, is that motivation? Is that just pointing out pure raw data? And we're not just talking about, a passing we're talking about that. Being a ongoing constant form of discussion between the athlete coach. Does that fall into what you would see as an abusive verbally or emotionally abusive coach? So I think it depends on how the dynamics of that is set up. So at Texas, I was on three national championship teams where those, we won five in a row and I was on the last three of those. And so I swam with retro quick, who was a. You S had Olympic coach. I think his first gold medal came with router gains. He's got, he's since passed away, but he's decorated just a decorated, decorate a coach. And he we'd all get called into his office and we'd, he'd ask us like what, what our goals were. And he would give us our goals to some respect. And and I, I swam on a team that was like, what 17 of us? And, 14 of us were Olympians and of those Olympians eight were metal winners and those metal winners. So it was like four or five world record holders. We're talking the most elite of elite teams in the world and all of our goals. The people on the same event, it was to win. We all have, and it was like, we'd talk at the end of the year, and the thing is, you'd go into Richard's office. And before you even stepped in, you would start crying. Cause they were like afraid of him. Yeah. There was just like that dynamic, but was that, was that a abusive or, were, he was giving us a goal that he wanted us to. Strive for now is if it's like you used to manipulate, he never came to me and said Stacy on the team, she also has the same goal. Who's gonna win. Like I didn't get any special treatment because it's but I believed, I believe that he believed in me that I could do that. That's my belief was I could win NCAAs with his training. That was my core belief out of all of that. And then was that like, Was it was I motivated by my teammate? No, that never came into the dynamic. We actually have the most beautiful alumni connection. He actually recruited by personality and if the one thing he did right was pulled together. An amazing team culture structure that 30 years later we are tight as tight can be. And, and to me that's like the purpose and the point of sport, like one of the positive outcomes that you get out of it, but we'll have a whole separate conversation on that. But the point being is. Can that dynamic be used to manipulate and can it be used to be abusive? The answer to the question is yes, but how you do it. So if I'm every day being like, Stacy over here, she's training harder than you. What's the matter, like in it's the gray it's demeaning and yeah. Versus, and once again, it's it's no longer the athlete doesn't believe that you believe that the athlete knows, like we know when we're being manipulated, and that's like the difference. So then once you know it, but that's their style and then you're responding to the manipulation and the response is becoming where you're performing better. Then there's this false sense that's actually. A helpful tactic, but it's really being driven by, fear and needing to please. And you're taking away self-esteem from the athlete using that tactic and going into that, how it may seem obvious to To, to ask this question, what is the point of grooming? What is the, what are some, what's the end game of the perpetrator of the groomer. But I'd love for you to tell in your experience what as the point of the whole broom, that being groomed and. And talk and answer it both for what's the end game for parent grooming a parent. And what's the end game for grooming an athlete? What is the coaches end game and abusive coaches end game? I believe it's all about power and so when you can we all know sexual abuse is, based on power and differentiation. So the more power that a coach can draw into his side versus the athletes side, that's where you become that's for what the end game is imagine a tug, a rope, and you're in, you're pulling that power. Way over to your side. It's all about that. And the more power you have, the less the athlete, the less athlete has, and the less they have to go out into the world with. So I want to create a quality, give the power back to the athlete. That's like, why do what I do and why I'm focused and passionate about this. And that's the simple answer to it. So from. And it creates this identity within the coach, so they've become a God they've produced. And so there's different aspects of it. And one of the really vulnerable places of certainly of sexual abuse is certainly in boys, isn't that pre senior group. So from like a pedophile standpoint it's that where they're not at the top level, but they have talent to be in the top level. And that's so what is the end game? It's to like lure in the power. It, it's hard for me to talk from from the coach's side, if you will, because for me there's just there's coaches that just they, their internal makeup is bad intentions. Like they got in. As a way, because they know how to be, to steal power and manipulate power, and then they need it. These are narcissistic coaches. And so when are you, when is like one of you just being charismatic and caring and when you're being narcissistic. And I think there's that moment where like you're in the web. And and it's all about Like that's their win and it's the deception and the hiding and being in plain sight, where there's power in somebody else's blindness. And what you're, you hit it power. That's where I've seen it in my practice where I've seen the. It's the intoxicating power. Not only are you powerful within that coach athlete dynamic in that, in the gym, on the field. But. Also, and you'll, I want you to talk about this for a second. You also assume that power in the parent child dynamic, I often refer to it as parental interference. You, the coach. Because you have, learn in the parents, you've groomed the parents, you off, you are now able to even interfere in that relationship where the child, even after the child leaves, the gym is in the car. On the way home is discredited unknowingly. The parent is discrediting the parent unknowingly because they've had been groomed. They're actually an extension of the coach and the coaches. Mischaracterizations the further trauma and that. Always breaks my heart. Once as you see the family coming out of this darkness, becoming aware that they have been groomed and seeing how they've been manipulated by the coach, I'll give you, by way of just, a hypothetical, The coach realizing, or maybe thinking that they may be outed or the child may complain about something that happened. Something that the coach did abusive gets on the phone and, even before the child can be picked up. Starts to, degrade and starts to shame and talk about the child. And, the parent hearing this, not knowing anything, taking the side, I transparency, I've done it myself. You walk onto the field and you're already upset not even giving the child a chance. That to me, it is it's the power and the power. So they're powerful. And to donate domains, they're powerful within the sport. And then now they've had a way to extend, be through grooming the parent. They're powerful in the home. They've interfered in that relationship. Did you ever see that in your experience where Paul, this abusive coach was able to interfere with your parent child relationship? Oh, absolutely. So after that, so after the sexual abuse happened I, so I, that, that summer, I wasn't on the world championship teams that I'd rightfully qualified in the Commonwealth games team easily rightfully qualified for. And that's where if I wasn't having sex with him, I wasn't gonna be on this team on 14. So I, and so the Commonwealth games were in Australia that year. And. And it's very sad when you're, it's it's sad for there to be a major competition going on and you're not in it. There's a real depression associated with that. And I, and so everybody was gone and and it was late in the season that year and I just wanted to quit. And so my father and I'll certainly be aging, my self in the sense that this is pre-internet and wrote a letter. And I actually still have the letter and I wrote this letter in my book. And and essentially Paul had called him or they, they had spoken cause I'm, away from home and had I'm training with him. And white spent the year with my mother. So it wasn't that I was away entirely. But and Paul had called my father and said, if I don't do what he says, I'm not going to make any more teams. And so my father is taking that in. As we are a a family of moral value. That was what was like important in our family to be good, upstanding citizens. And and that's what comes out of sport. And so you're really hitting on the core of it. Like me not living up to what my family is trying to develop within. So I had already, I had lost the battle. Like I'd lost. I had already, I already lost, I had no one on my side and here I'm in. It's you gotta do what you, you and I was told specifically, I need to listen to what he has to say. I have to do what he says. And that's where I think for a moment let's pause, like we look at this behavior and that's when I say, and the reason I do what I do, the reason I started say for athletes is because I knew how I know how lonely it is. To not have anybody on your team. And I want every athlete to know that I am on your team. I will always be there for you because I can hear you. And there's like the missing moments where your kids, like you see your kid acting out on the field but you didn't see the events before you didn't see the 10 things that happened that led to that choice and that decision. You just saw something that you don't want to see in your kid. For me, that's where I feel like, and then you respond to your kid, not knowing what all those previous incidences are that led them to that choice. We're all guilty of it. That not that I have kids, but we are all, we're all guilty of it. What you're saying, Katherine is. I firmly believe a cultural acceptance and norm, I keep going back to those words where kids are disbelieved. They are, the rude kid the mischievous kid we like to put these adjectives in front of children, that comports to the power dynamic of children down here. They don't know anything. They don't know themselves. They can't speak for themselves and adults up here where as we said before, in my experience in working with kids for over 20 years, they say, And when I talked to them, they know the truth, they know their truth and they add to the most simple poignant questions. So I don't even, I think it's a cultural thing. I don't think it has to do with whether you have kids or not. I think it has to do with how we characterize the childhood. So that's my 2 cents, but I don't mean to cut you off, but I know that there's two other issues that is important that we get out, I want you to inform us, inform the parents and athletes about the, what I know that we've talked about off, off ear, about the athlete, domestic violence scenario dynamic. What does that mean? What does it look like? What should we be aware of? Okay. So Judy is also referring to an article that I wrote, which is called breaking down sexual abuse in sport. And so the way I have broken it down is that there's pedophilia at large it's sickness not just of our country, but globally. And but it's not the cause within sport. It doesn't get generated as a result of sport. What gets generated as a result of sport is sexual harassment, which is nonphysical engagement, a lot of verbal which breaks you down, which can lead to the sexual abuse. Like just to see where your, push it. And then you have sexual abuse and sexual abuse often. Based on the survey that say for athletes, did we identified one twenty-five percent of the people who took the survey identified as having sexual abuse. So the majority of that happened Multiple times over multiple seasons since we asked if it was a single time single instance or multiple times over one year or multiple times over multiple years. And it and all, whether it's emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, they all identified as multiple times over multiple years. So you stay in these dynamics, right? That just tells you how insidious and strong. This entrapment is and then the final one, which is I talked about athlete domestic violence, which is really gets into this relationship that you have with your coach, that your peers see it as. This sort of voluntary engagement that you have, like you're choosing even as a minor there's this external perception, cause it's often peers to know what's really going on. And the parents don't, there's some deceiver and in, in all that's rewarding at a young age. And that, and then that dance starts to happen where. You can't leave the situation, but you can't be in the situation. And so then when something happens that's, strong and harmful and where you wants to leave, you're stuck in the dynamic because you still have the passion for your sport. Yeah. And so you're stuck with so you have this athlete within you that I, as I'm continuing to talk about, and we'll continue to elaborate on it as as years go by. And w that passion. Is it's every part of your core is like what you get out of bed for. And what you're getting out of bed for is now in an abusive situation. And so you're stuck in this, like, how do you. How do you care for your athlete flame at the same time? How do you care for your, like your whole being, right? It becomes two separate beings within you. That one is being tortured and the other is finding passion and you're not at, and because you were talking about. People that aren't like independent out in the world. First of all, they don't know what's going on. They just are having. This unrest, but then there, you're attached to the passion of, like your sport. And if you, my opening part of my book is pure passion. Like it just like my, I love to swim and everything that it did and just being in the water. And in today's world, I don't like to get wet, which is a challenge I'm just going to have to plow through that, but it to really embrace. That passion again, like I'm afraid to hurt it. I'm afraid to hurt that part of it, but, and so like when you get into this dance, it's really hard to get out of it. One, you often don't have the means because you're at, at the mercy of your parents, abilities, and also to go to your parents and feel like you failed. Cause that's the other part. Like you want to let your athlete fail, but then the athlete, then who's driven. It doesn't want to fail their parents. And so now they're in the situation of you spent$5,000, you've done this, you've done that. Like you'd be beside yourself. If you knew that those pressures kept this athlete in this situation, if you really knew what was going on. Yeah. And so that's part of like, when you let say somebody fails, it allows for the issues to come up and it doesn't matter in this blanket failure of life and make your child lazy. It just allows some room and some space to it to rise to the surface. But our expectations and everything else, keep it down. So that's how that dance stays intact, hacked. And then we're used to the dance. Because now, even if you've, let's just say you're over it and you're in your career, you're in your twenties, you're still athletically pursuing, you're used to how to navigate through this dance to maintain your passion, but as energy draining, it's just port pure energy draining and you're learning like this relationship and often there's this there's a statistic out there of elite athletes. That they're they get into domestic violent relationships, like 80% of them. And here's these, the strongest women athletes. And here they are getting in this same dynamic. Yeah. It's, what's known and what's, it's what feels familiar. So we know from, tons of psychologists, you studies that you repeat patterns that of course, that keep reappearing that have not been figured out what you just said we need. And honestly, I feel like buying a billboard in every state. We need to allow for the room and the space to let these issues come up. And I think that if we started all of us collectively as a culture, as parents, as athletes, if we gave them room in the space, we would see this epidemic of sexual abuse, emotional abuse start to slow. I would close with, asking you, how do we start? How do we what's the first step. And I don't know, maybe it is the room in the space to let the issues come up. How do we start to empower our athletes? How do we start to empower them so that they are aware of the grooming so that they feel able to maybe they don't have a name for it, but they're able to start seeing early and often this is happening. I don't feel good about this or they're, so that they're. Being mis-characterized when the coach says, Oh, your child is uncoachable. How are we able to allow our athletes to say, Oh no, that's not what's happening, mom, I'm not uncoachable. This is what's happening. How do we get our athletes to that point? One every team club parent should require your club to be a safe athletes team. And part of our structure specifically designed to have an athlete welfare advocate. There, it, depending on the size of the club, one or two athlete, welfare advocates, and they're designed to be able to take in that information and any one of these athletes can call and connect. If they're part of the safe athletes program can connect into us and we'll help other the athlete welfare advocate, that's part of that team or any issue. We can help resolve cause we're going to get it earlier on. Yeah, no, it doesn't develop at cause we're talking end stage. And so then once you. Have a program and a structure that allows room space for this has come up. Then you also then need to compliment that with tools and programs and what have you and say for athletes developing those Katherine start on our, my website were developed, like that's what I'm doing and seminars and programs. So to help athletes too. Translate their language into actionable responses and in often. And so the language then is right now, the language being used is. Whether it's yelling at your coach after 10 incidents, like the language is not in plain English. So that's where I can help and translate that for you and be able to get to the root of the issue very quickly. So I say we start and make it make it a norm to have safer athletes, programs and structures in, in your child's athletes. Development from a young age, learn the culture, learn it from such a young age that it becomes second nature for them to be able to articulate. And say for athletes works on all angles. So whether it's parents coaches, teams, athletes we're there. And, and of course feel free to connect with myself and we will change this together. This is a group effort for all of us to collectively have the same outcome and desire and goal. Say for athletes, what you, how you're ending this. It makes me feel hopeful as a practitioner representing athletes who have been sexually and emotionally abused. It gives me the ability to think that this can be solved is a solvable issue. What I took from our talk today was that the point of entry for grooming to begin is when the child has been identified and becomes vulnerable because they're talented, they're skilled. They have that inner light and then that inner light either stays lit, or it starts to be suffocated over the grooming process. And that's what parents have to be aware of. They have to be aware of their child being mis-characterized characteristic fascinated. It's all part of the cycle. It's all part of this art and what you were saying before, it this slow and steady grooming. And how do we confront this? Safer for athletes. So that's what I took for. Is there anything else that I'm forgetting or you wanted to add before we ended? That's what I took from our conversation. Yeah. And that's, I go to our site safe number for athletes that org. And if you're interested in more information about our site, just email us@infoatsaferathletes.org and sign up for our newsletters as we are. We'd love to get you on board and get you Get a program started for you guys and we'll have a much smoother system in the next few weeks to make it all electronic and onboarding. But Joel find us and come be a safer athletes team and we can do this together. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. And we will be back shortly with another discussion. Can't wait. Thanks Katherine. Thank you.